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	<title>Comments on: Andijon &amp; Beyond</title>
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		<title>By: Shining Light in Dark Corners</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2005/05/16/andijon-beyond/comment-page-1/#comment-19225</link>
		<dc:creator>Shining Light in Dark Corners</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 May 2005 00:03:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/?p=5316#comment-19225</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Our &quot;Allies&quot; in Uzbekistan Run a Brutal Dictatorship&lt;/strong&gt;

The following is from a highly respect blog about Uzbekistan, The Registan. Currently there is a news blackout in the area in Uzbekistan that turned violent. But the &quot;rebellion&quot; has been brutally put down by the Uzbekistan government: Andijon and Bey...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Our &#8220;Allies&#8221; in Uzbekistan Run a Brutal Dictatorship</strong></p>
<p>The following is from a highly respect blog about Uzbekistan, The Registan. Currently there is a news blackout in the area in Uzbekistan that turned violent. But the &#8220;rebellion&#8221; has been brutally put down by the Uzbekistan government: Andijon and Bey&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Lyndon</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2005/05/16/andijon-beyond/comment-page-1/#comment-19224</link>
		<dc:creator>Lyndon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 May 2005 23:01:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/?p=5316#comment-19224</guid>
		<description>Excellent discussion, guys.  I did post some of Dee&#039;s content, but I asked her first and she said she was OK with it, plus I&#039;m not really a &quot;journalist,&quot; right?  On second thought, maybe I&#039;ll ask her if she wants me to take that post down.

I liked reading these comments all the way down - just about every item that I thought should be responded to was responded to (remarkably, usually in a way similar to - or even more insightful than - what I was thinking of saying) by someone as I scrolled down, so the only remaining thing I wanted to mention was that there are ABSOLUTELY independent Russian journalists who have reasonable and in some cases very insightful views on this.  Vremia Novostei has a couple of articles, I think, and one thing which Ferghana.ru has put up is a partial transcript of Yulia Latynina&#039;s radio program (full transcript in Russian is here - http://www.echo.msk.ru/programs/code/36418/
 ) from the other day where she makes some pretty good points, in my opinion, but then I&#039;ve always been a Latynina fan - http://scrapsofmoscow.blogspot.com/2004/12/latynina-interesting-pundit.html

In all seriousness, though, just because a journalist is Russian or writes in Russian doesn&#039;t mean that they back the Russian government&#039;s policies (Putin&#039;s guys are working on that, but they aren&#039;t quite there yet - and I know no one commenting here has made a blanket statement about all Russian journalists, but sometimes it&#039;s too easy to generalize), and I&#039;ve seen Russian commentators be even-handed and even some who are more critical of the Uzbek authorities than this site generally is.  I wish I had more time to translate stuff, but tragically I have to work to pay the rent.  And the free internet-translation software that I&#039;ve seen just doesn&#039;t cut it on Russian -&gt; English, unfortunately.

Oh, and that Raimondo piece?  He doesn&#039;t impress me with his sharpness of wit, so I&#039;m going to say something unverifiable (like so many of the things we&#039;ve been reading these last few days) and say that he ripped off the Belarus comparison from me:
http://scrapsofmoscow.blogspot.com/2005/05/interesting-comparison.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent discussion, guys.  I did post some of Dee&#8217;s content, but I asked her first and she said she was OK with it, plus I&#8217;m not really a &#8220;journalist,&#8221; right?  On second thought, maybe I&#8217;ll ask her if she wants me to take that post down.</p>
<p>I liked reading these comments all the way down &#8211; just about every item that I thought should be responded to was responded to (remarkably, usually in a way similar to &#8211; or even more insightful than &#8211; what I was thinking of saying) by someone as I scrolled down, so the only remaining thing I wanted to mention was that there are ABSOLUTELY independent Russian journalists who have reasonable and in some cases very insightful views on this.  Vremia Novostei has a couple of articles, I think, and one thing which Ferghana.ru has put up is a partial transcript of Yulia Latynina&#8217;s radio program (full transcript in Russian is here &#8211; <a href="http://www.echo.msk.ru/programs/code/36418/" rel="nofollow">http://www.echo.msk.ru/programs/code/36418/</a><br />
 ) from the other day where she makes some pretty good points, in my opinion, but then I&#8217;ve always been a Latynina fan &#8211; <a href="http://scrapsofmoscow.blogspot.com/2004/12/latynina-interesting-pundit.html" rel="nofollow">http://scrapsofmoscow.blogspot.com/2004/12/latynina-interesting-pundit.html</a></p>
<p>In all seriousness, though, just because a journalist is Russian or writes in Russian doesn&#8217;t mean that they back the Russian government&#8217;s policies (Putin&#8217;s guys are working on that, but they aren&#8217;t quite there yet &#8211; and I know no one commenting here has made a blanket statement about all Russian journalists, but sometimes it&#8217;s too easy to generalize), and I&#8217;ve seen Russian commentators be even-handed and even some who are more critical of the Uzbek authorities than this site generally is.  I wish I had more time to translate stuff, but tragically I have to work to pay the rent.  And the free internet-translation software that I&#8217;ve seen just doesn&#8217;t cut it on Russian -&gt; English, unfortunately.</p>
<p>Oh, and that Raimondo piece?  He doesn&#8217;t impress me with his sharpness of wit, so I&#8217;m going to say something unverifiable (like so many of the things we&#8217;ve been reading these last few days) and say that he ripped off the Belarus comparison from me:<br />
<a href="http://scrapsofmoscow.blogspot.com/2005/05/interesting-comparison.html" rel="nofollow">http://scrapsofmoscow.blogspot.com/2005/05/interesting-comparison.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Nathan</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2005/05/16/andijon-beyond/comment-page-1/#comment-19218</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 May 2005 17:58:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/?p=5316#comment-19218</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the heads-up Eric. I think I might put up a note for the press. Dee just went through and deleted a lot of content and has expressed earlier to me that she is somewhat afraid that Peace Corps will be upset with her. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the heads-up Eric. I think I might put up a note for the press. Dee just went through and deleted a lot of content and has expressed earlier to me that she is somewhat afraid that Peace Corps will be upset with her.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2005/05/16/andijon-beyond/comment-page-1/#comment-19217</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 May 2005 17:49:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/?p=5316#comment-19217</guid>
		<description>Unrelated comment:
Nathan you made the Guardian:
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/archives/world_news/2005/05/16/eye_on_uzbekistan.html

I would like to remind any reporters, if they wish to use the comments of a Peace Corps volunteer to please ask they if it is ok first.  Considering the status of Peace Corps in many countries in the world it is essential the Peace Corps, and its volunteeres, remain non-political.  Dee may well not mind her comments appearing on that site, but it would be responsiblel to ask.  Thanks.
Views expressed by volunteers are, obviously, not those of Peace Corps.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unrelated comment:<br />
Nathan you made the Guardian:<br />
<a href="http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/archives/world_news/2005/05/16/eye_on_uzbekistan.html" rel="nofollow">http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/archives/world_news/2005/05/16/eye_on_uzbekistan.html</a></p>
<p>I would like to remind any reporters, if they wish to use the comments of a Peace Corps volunteer to please ask they if it is ok first.  Considering the status of Peace Corps in many countries in the world it is essential the Peace Corps, and its volunteeres, remain non-political.  Dee may well not mind her comments appearing on that site, but it would be responsiblel to ask.  Thanks.<br />
Views expressed by volunteers are, obviously, not those of Peace Corps.</p>
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		<title>By: david l</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2005/05/16/andijon-beyond/comment-page-1/#comment-19216</link>
		<dc:creator>david l</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 May 2005 17:40:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/?p=5316#comment-19216</guid>
		<description>An interesting report/rumour on fergana.ru (for those who can&#039;t get it) claiming the Uzbek government may be preparing universal conscription/mobilisation. They would have to be mad to try it of course, and I don&#039;t really think lack of manpower is the main problem for the army. Possibly a way of getting angry young men off the streets I suppose, but taking them off the streets and putting them in garrisons with lots of guns doesn&#039;t seem the best way to avoid an all-out armed revolt. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An interesting report/rumour on fergana.ru (for those who can&#8217;t get it) claiming the Uzbek government may be preparing universal conscription/mobilisation. They would have to be mad to try it of course, and I don&#8217;t really think lack of manpower is the main problem for the army. Possibly a way of getting angry young men off the streets I suppose, but taking them off the streets and putting them in garrisons with lots of guns doesn&#8217;t seem the best way to avoid an all-out armed revolt.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2005/05/16/andijon-beyond/comment-page-1/#comment-19215</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 May 2005 17:39:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/?p=5316#comment-19215</guid>
		<description>Certainly.  Sparks aside there is much more on the line.  I am deeply thankful to Jack Straw for esentially making policy of your stance, &quot;Something aweful happened, the world has a right to know.  Show us.&quot;
It is simply reprehensible for the American government to have not only not agreed, but said nothing at all.  An American statement similar to Britain&#039;s would help focus American media in a useful direction.
One positive of finishing my Peace Corps service in April is that I don&#039;t have to be there now answering questions from my friends in Andijon about what my country is doing for them in their time of desperate need.
But others are being asked this right now.
One way or another Bush and his boys are going to have to decide if they value Order and Stability over the unknown quantity of Human rights and democracy.
I am not saying it will be an easy choice.


  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Certainly.  Sparks aside there is much more on the line.  I am deeply thankful to Jack Straw for esentially making policy of your stance, &#8220;Something aweful happened, the world has a right to know.  Show us.&#8221;<br />
It is simply reprehensible for the American government to have not only not agreed, but said nothing at all.  An American statement similar to Britain&#8217;s would help focus American media in a useful direction.<br />
One positive of finishing my Peace Corps service in April is that I don&#8217;t have to be there now answering questions from my friends in Andijon about what my country is doing for them in their time of desperate need.<br />
But others are being asked this right now.<br />
One way or another Bush and his boys are going to have to decide if they value Order and Stability over the unknown quantity of Human rights and democracy.<br />
I am not saying it will be an easy choice.</p>
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		<title>By: Nathan</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2005/05/16/andijon-beyond/comment-page-1/#comment-19214</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 May 2005 17:10:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/?p=5316#comment-19214</guid>
		<description>From what I can tell, she was told that they had no guns until they took them from the military base. It seems they didn&#039;t start firing until they went for the SNB.

My primary concern is to make sure that readers in the West don&#039;t buy the Uzbek government&#039;s story without thinking long and hard about what we actually know. Some people on my side of the ideological fence seem way to quick to chalk the whole kit &#039;n&#039; kaboodle up to a fanatical mob trying to turn the country into a Taliban clone. On the other side, there are too many people who are eager to label the protest a kumbaya, &quot;can&#039;t we all get along and be democratic?&quot; get-together. We won&#039;t know all the details for a while if we ever do, but suffice it to say that the situation isn&#039;t easy to fit in a box.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From what I can tell, she was told that they had no guns until they took them from the military base. It seems they didn&#8217;t start firing until they went for the SNB.</p>
<p>My primary concern is to make sure that readers in the West don&#8217;t buy the Uzbek government&#8217;s story without thinking long and hard about what we actually know. Some people on my side of the ideological fence seem way to quick to chalk the whole kit &#8216;n&#8217; kaboodle up to a fanatical mob trying to turn the country into a Taliban clone. On the other side, there are too many people who are eager to label the protest a kumbaya, &#8220;can&#8217;t we all get along and be democratic?&#8221; get-together. We won&#8217;t know all the details for a while if we ever do, but suffice it to say that the situation isn&#8217;t easy to fit in a box.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2005/05/16/andijon-beyond/comment-page-1/#comment-19213</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 May 2005 17:01:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/?p=5316#comment-19213</guid>
		<description>Yea, good stuff from IWPR as always though.  I wish the vagueness could be cleared up about &quot;moved towards military bases&quot;.  Starting to arrest the crowd would certainly be a trigger but that doesn&#039;t really explain the guns.  Sure, most Uzbek males know their way around a Kalashnikov but it seems so odd that it came to that.  It wasn&#039;t exactly the Bastille.  
Unless there is some clear explanation for the presence of assult rifles (&quot;they on had the rifles after seizing the place&quot; &quot;there were a number at the check point into the building&quot;) and a reason why they took the step of using them (&quot;There were physically threatened&quot;  &quot;someone snapped&quot;) then the authorities will always be able to spin it as premeditated and terrorist-ish.  People just don&#039;t have guns in Uzbekistan.
Thus my insistence that it really dosen&#039;t matter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yea, good stuff from IWPR as always though.  I wish the vagueness could be cleared up about &#8220;moved towards military bases&#8221;.  Starting to arrest the crowd would certainly be a trigger but that doesn&#8217;t really explain the guns.  Sure, most Uzbek males know their way around a Kalashnikov but it seems so odd that it came to that.  It wasn&#8217;t exactly the Bastille.<br />
Unless there is some clear explanation for the presence of assult rifles (&#8220;they on had the rifles after seizing the place&#8221; &#8220;there were a number at the check point into the building&#8221;) and a reason why they took the step of using them (&#8220;There were physically threatened&#8221;  &#8220;someone snapped&#8221;) then the authorities will always be able to spin it as premeditated and terrorist-ish.  People just don&#8217;t have guns in Uzbekistan.<br />
Thus my insistence that it really dosen&#8217;t matter.</p>
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		<title>By: Nathan</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2005/05/16/andijon-beyond/comment-page-1/#comment-19212</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 May 2005 16:48:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/?p=5316#comment-19212</guid>
		<description>Eric, I just gave &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.iwpr.net/index.pl?archive/rca2/rca2_377_1_eng.txt&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this&lt;/a&gt; a closer read, and it nearly convinces me that the protesters themselves were the ones who stormed the prison and did so because the SNB had been arresting people outside of the courthouse on the 12th. It sounds like it just snowballed into seizing the whole town.  Which, honestly, sounds more plausible to me than a number of other ideas I&#039;ve had about the situation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric, I just gave <a href="http://www.iwpr.net/index.pl?archive/rca2/rca2_377_1_eng.txt" rel="nofollow">this</a> a closer read, and it nearly convinces me that the protesters themselves were the ones who stormed the prison and did so because the SNB had been arresting people outside of the courthouse on the 12th. It sounds like it just snowballed into seizing the whole town.  Which, honestly, sounds more plausible to me than a number of other ideas I&#8217;ve had about the situation.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2005/05/16/andijon-beyond/comment-page-1/#comment-19211</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 May 2005 16:44:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/?p=5316#comment-19211</guid>
		<description>I can just see the students at Andijon institutes getting today and tommorow off for subotnik so they can &quot;tidy up the streets&quot; for the important guests...

As to the jailbreak, it certainly seems possible to me that the break itself was organized by family/clan/money/faith connections who, perhaps cynically, thought that the supporters in the street could be used as cover.  That is the only rational I can think of for an act that desperate.  (Although, frankly, were I a defendent on a Stalinist show trial, I wouldn&#039;t think that such a bad idea at all.)  
However, reguardless of the actual motivations for the jail break, even if it was a cell of battle hardened, Taliban trained, IMU fighters fueled up on vodka (they are Uzbek afterall), that doesn&#039;t bring 10,000 people out to hang out and listen to speaches around the ugly Bobur statue.  There may well not be 10,000 extremists in the whole valley.  Blaming the attack on terrorists can do nothing to detract from the immensity of that much public solidarity for change.
The Boston Tea party was, afterall, about tea, taxes, and business.  The motivation for the fires spark is inconsequential if your house is burning.
 There is nothing that Karimov or the Russian government can say against that picture of Andijon&#039;s centeral roundabout packed with squatting people who won&#039;t sit on the pavement because its cold, who haven&#039;t brought anything to sit on, but all insist on staying.  It still shocks me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can just see the students at Andijon institutes getting today and tommorow off for subotnik so they can &#8220;tidy up the streets&#8221; for the important guests&#8230;</p>
<p>As to the jailbreak, it certainly seems possible to me that the break itself was organized by family/clan/money/faith connections who, perhaps cynically, thought that the supporters in the street could be used as cover.  That is the only rational I can think of for an act that desperate.  (Although, frankly, were I a defendent on a Stalinist show trial, I wouldn&#8217;t think that such a bad idea at all.)<br />
However, reguardless of the actual motivations for the jail break, even if it was a cell of battle hardened, Taliban trained, IMU fighters fueled up on vodka (they are Uzbek afterall), that doesn&#8217;t bring 10,000 people out to hang out and listen to speaches around the ugly Bobur statue.  There may well not be 10,000 extremists in the whole valley.  Blaming the attack on terrorists can do nothing to detract from the immensity of that much public solidarity for change.<br />
The Boston Tea party was, afterall, about tea, taxes, and business.  The motivation for the fires spark is inconsequential if your house is burning.<br />
 There is nothing that Karimov or the Russian government can say against that picture of Andijon&#8217;s centeral roundabout packed with squatting people who won&#8217;t sit on the pavement because its cold, who haven&#8217;t brought anything to sit on, but all insist on staying.  It still shocks me.</p>
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