Comments on: The Cost of Freedom in Uzbekistan

By: Azjon

Azjon — Thu, 29 Dec 2005 02:31:27 +0000

Dear Rustam I’m happy to see someone who is as fed up with FUCKING regime and FUCKING Karimov as myself. You made a very good point when you wrote
“First day it is blood bath, eye for eye, anger, revenge. IshAK will do everything to crush it as soon as it comes up, in a particular kishlak, district, city before it spreads to the neighbouring areas, even until the news spreads to Tashkent.” And I do like what you call Karimov too. He is Ishak with the big I. And yes, they have to pay for their crimes regardless of where they hide.
My best regards
Azjon

By: Rustam

Rustam — Wed, 28 Dec 2005 23:36:13 +0000

David and Nathan – as always thank you for comments and no doubt on my part that often outsiders have an interesting and valuable perspective on issues taking place inside. Actually do agree with what you said about people being content. It is partially true because of many reasons:
1. Karimov always tried, and continues to do so, to look good in the eyes of pensioners and elderly in general, by raising minimum pensions and always showing himself embracing them on the TV. Why it is important – because in the Uzbek family, as You guys have seen You have real traditional family structure with proper grand father and grand mother, who if they hear You in the BBC Uzbek Service giving an interview, talking about how disgusted you are with the IshAK and his government, or say anything negative on the table or when they want to watch Uzbek news on the TV, will tell You not to mess with the politics and tell You to be patient and the peace is the most important thing and all economic hardship is only temporary;
2. The character of Uzbek people, patience and belief that tomorrow things will improve.
However I think this is changing and changing very fast. This generational difference is apparent, younger generation is not planning to wait another 10 years, as well as those who have seen the worst of 15 years, now pensioners or in their mid 40’s. The values like – “the peace is the priority, everything else, even the dictator and miserable living standards, are in the second place is not there anymore.
Azizjon – Was glad to read Your comments. I hope that Yong Uzbeks like You and ME will get IshAK, some of his ministers and his daughters anywhere they try to hide,(Moscow, Abu-Dhabi, London) as he did of so many people that we come to know during almost 15 years.
Djana – a la Ghandi style is the second and the third days of the civil disobedience, if it will survive and will grow to such a mass and all the TV correspondents will be there from CNN, DW, RFE/RL and IWPR. First day it is blood bath, eye for eye, anger, revenge. IshAK will do everything to crush it as soon as it comes up, in a particular kishlak, district, city before it spreads to the neighbouring areas, even until the news spreads to Tashkent.

By: Azjon

Azjon — Tue, 27 Dec 2005 16:25:49 +0000

Hi David.
I agree with you about me being angry. And as you rightfully noted I should get our dialog in to more constructive tone. I also want to apologize for offending you guys. As I said before you are doing a great service to all of us. I’m not an angry person in general but I just like most of the people have a button that one can push. And just like you I care greatly for my country. Anyways this whole thing about Uzbeks being content pushed my button. As I said in the past I’m from Uzbekistan and surly know more people more intimatly than any of you ever will. So my point is that we (me and my friends) talked about issues and I didn’t hear any of them being “content” with regime. We (me and my friends)had a nicknames for our president one of them was Prezik(short for condom in Russian).
Well I think I have apologized enough for my behavior here. Now back to real issue of Karimov and his trial. I can’t see his regime ending without an external push.I think that Karimov’s hold on Uzbekistan is too strong at this time especially after his renewed friendship with Russia. As you all well know at Present Russia is moving back towards semi- communism rapidly. At the same time Uzbekistan never really moved away from former regime in the first place. So with Russia’s backing Karimov’s regime will only grow stronger. There is also issue of China that also supports Uzbek president.So right now Karimov is pretty safe as long as he has his new friends.I talked to my brother in-law(Who is a Russian citizen) and He told me that Russian TV was describing the Karimov’s dealing with Andijon situation as positive. I personally would like to see something like the trial of Saddam in Uzbekistan. However,if it ever happens I also would like to see a better control of public safty siuation. As much as I like to see Saddam in a court room let’s face it Iraq is a mess. At the same time, in a long run Iraq is better off without Saddam. Well going back to Karimov: 1.There have to be some international help to end his regime. 2. I personaly would like to see the US overseeing Karimov’s trial. 3.His possible trial has to be public.Unfortunatly if anything ever happens Karimov most definitly will run to Russia just like Akaev did.

By: David Walther

David Walther — Tue, 27 Dec 2005 06:35:16 +0000

Hey Azijon,

I thought you were going to tone it down? I think we’ve gone way past constructive dialogue here. I understand that you have a lot of hate and anger, and you are very entitled to that–but you know, the fact is this is probably one of the only english-language dialogues out there where you can even have this conversation, much less find a whole group of Americans who have spent significant parts of their lives in Uzbekistan and care very deeply for its people… we all value your opinion, and each of us wants to be part of this dialogue with you. So let’s please not ruin it here.

This discussion has gone pretty far out of context, and you’re taking your anger out on things that people never said, having arguements against opinions that don’t exist.

No one here (in this string, anyway) argues that people in Uzbekistan are happy, or that Karimov is not a criminal. No one here thinks the people of Uzbekistan are all happy. No one is defending Karimov, no one is arguing on his side.

I’d be very interested to hear more from about what you think should be done–you obviously think that strikes or passive resistence can’t work, so what is the solution? You mentioned a criminal court, you mentioned a trial, but who should put him on trial, how should it happen?
If we’re going to continue this disussion (I feel kind of responsible for this one since this was my post, however unrelated this all has become to the original article), maybe we can get it back on track a little bit.

By: Azjon

Azjon — Tue, 27 Dec 2005 04:46:50 +0000

Hi, Nathan as I told you in the past insiders view is going to differ from outsiders. I don’t know if you can read russian? If you can you should be familiar with the term CHSEIR(chleni semey izmennikov rodini). I’m not familiar with the Teikovo strike in all of it details but I do know that in Stalin’s SSSR once an enemy was allways an enemy.So when you say that people were sent to Kazakhstan can you actually trace someone who came back? My grandfather was arrested with Akmal Ikramov, Faizulla Khodjayev, during the “Trial of the Twenty One” and he was probably one of the few who survived his imprisonment.As far as I know he only survived with help of his comrads such as Khrushchev and Brezhnev. Also,after nine months in a single cell I’m just speculating here he probably told them what “they”(NKVD) wanted to hear from him. I don’t blame him if he did what I think he did. After all not all of us can survive nine months of torture by “NKVD.” So the last time I was in Tashkent people were calling fucking Karimov Stalin. That’s why you see so many people that appear to be happy. Fear is the strong instrument dear Nathan.

By: Djana

Djana — Mon, 26 Dec 2005 22:02:13 +0000

I’ve been away from the computer for a few days, and must say its very refreshing.
Anyway! Azjon, if you read my post carefully one more time, you will see why I am saying that the Kyrgyzstan-style revolution will not happen in our homeland. I think that currently, the hope is in people. The simple folk, the masses. Civil disobedience a la Ghandi style.

By: Nathan

Nathan — Mon, 26 Dec 2005 20:13:34 +0000

No, I’m not saying you are bullshitting me, but I’m calling bullshit on your blanket statement. The Teikovo strike was actually very large. The leaders were exiled to Kazakhstan, but no one really suffered like those imprisoned and killed for individual dissent (or utterly imagined charges of being a state enemy). The situation seems somewhat similar to me in Uzbekistan.

Neither Jonathan nor I are saying you or all Uzbeks are content. Plenty that I knew came off as such though. It surprises me, but that’s what I observed. I also knew many who were pissed off, so I’m not saying by any stretch of the imagination that all Uzbeks are content, let alone happy.

And yes, please do try to be less confrontational. It’s about the only way you’ll really piss me off in the comments. If you disagree, please do so in a civil manner. (I will stick to my guns in telling people what they can or can’t do around here. I pay the bills. Registan.net is property 100% owned by Nathan R. Hamm. And last time I checked, property rights still trump speech rights–or, do not obligate property owners to honor 1st amendment speech rights to be more accurate–in this country.) My only rule is that commenters behave as if they were guests in my house. Part of that is treating other commenters with respect.

By: Azjon

Azjon — Mon, 26 Dec 2005 15:35:05 +0000

Dear Nathan
After writing my last comment I spent some time on this site looking around, and I would like to thank you for what you do here. Sometime my hate of Karimov’s regime and communism in general blinds me. And I simly overlooked the fact that people like you are providing an information that otherwise would not be there. I belive in what I say, but I wish that I could say these thing in less confrontational manner. Again thank you.
My best regards,
Azjon

By: Azjon

Azjon — Mon, 26 Dec 2005 15:16:34 +0000

Dear Nathan let’s avoid confrontational lingo here. We are not talking about our personal issues. According to you if only few people were killed means that I’m bull shitting you? So in another words if 100 people protest and only 4 are killed than the whole thing about Stalin’s regime is bullshit? How about concentration camps? Are they bull shit too? To me the concentration camps or (labor camps as communists like to call them)is the cynical way to kill people. Some of my family mebers are from Norilsk if you know anything about that place you should know about labor camps there. Trust me, if my path ever crosses Karimov’s his health will be in a very sorry state after that meeting. But since it is unlikely to happen I will not say more about that matter. As far as your comment about non Uzbek societies goes, I can see you or Jonathan talking about my sosiety and describing my people as content(In a state of peaceful happiness or satisfaction according to Electronic Pocket Oxford English Dictionary) with their lives under Karimov’s regime makes me somewhat not so “content.” And do not tell me what to say. Last time I checked freedom of speech was still in place in this country. Hovewer, I can’t disagree with your comments about other people’s perspective on Uzbekistan you are right about that one. Going back to the real issues: you asked me about what I would like to see happen in Uzbekistan? Well I would like to see Karimov in the court room. And than I would like to see him hanged or killed by lethal injection (or any other method)for his crimes. That would be a very good first step.

By: Nathan

Nathan — Mon, 26 Dec 2005 06:11:13 +0000

Azjon, if we want to be picky on the facts, I’m gonna have to call bullshit on your “they were all dead within a short time” remark on dissent under Stalin. After the Teikovo strikes, for example, there were few, if any (I can’t recall exactly), executions afterwards. The leaders were exiled.

And I’m going to have to stand by Jonathan’s observation that many are fairly content with their lives. I noticed much the same thing. That assessment doesn’t mean I think those folks who seemed more or less content didn’t want change–they told me they weren’t entirely happy. Content doesn’t mean happy.

[And as a note, if you're going to be so vehement and say your perspective trumps Jonathan's (which I think you're misreading) because you're the "insider," I'm gonna be quick to jump down your throat if you ever notice some kind of quality in non-Uzbek societies. But it's important to remember that sometimes outsiders have an interesting and valuable perspective that insiders fail to mention.]