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	<title>Comments on: Of Mass Graves and Public Diplomacy</title>
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	<description>Central Asia News -- All Central Asia, All The Time</description>
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		<title>By: Joshua Foust</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2007/07/30/of-mass-graves-and-public-diplomacy/comment-page-1/#comment-375335</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua Foust</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Aug 2007 23:49:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>It&#039;s almost like we should go to war with the Army we need, and not the one we just happen to have. I agree. A lot of &quot;outsiders&quot; -- that is to say, foreign policy experts, NGO workers, consultants and analysts from outside the military -- feel the same way. Yet here we are, six years on, with the same damned Army.

Makes you think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s almost like we should go to war with the Army we need, and not the one we just happen to have. I agree. A lot of &#8220;outsiders&#8221; &#8212; that is to say, foreign policy experts, NGO workers, consultants and analysts from outside the military &#8212; feel the same way. Yet here we are, six years on, with the same damned Army.</p>
<p>Makes you think.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2007/07/30/of-mass-graves-and-public-diplomacy/comment-page-1/#comment-375334</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Aug 2007 22:01:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2007/07/30/of-mass-graves-and-public-diplomacy/#comment-375334</guid>
		<description>Peter and Joshua - you&#039;re right, it would be better to have sound judgment on the ground than someone from 15,000 ft bombing, when possible

this would require investing in a larger army (that is trained in peacekeeping, peacemaking, counter-insurgency, as well as traditional land warfare) and spending less on air force gadgets... but that&#039;s a whole nother topic</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter and Joshua &#8211; you&#8217;re right, it would be better to have sound judgment on the ground than someone from 15,000 ft bombing, when possible</p>
<p>this would require investing in a larger army (that is trained in peacekeeping, peacemaking, counter-insurgency, as well as traditional land warfare) and spending less on air force gadgets&#8230; but that&#8217;s a whole nother topic</p>
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		<title>By: Péter</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2007/07/30/of-mass-graves-and-public-diplomacy/comment-page-1/#comment-375308</link>
		<dc:creator>Péter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2007 18:49:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2007/07/30/of-mass-graves-and-public-diplomacy/#comment-375308</guid>
		<description>If somebody hasn&#039;t yet tired of reading this series of comments from me, I&#039;ll correct myself again about Langan&#039;s documentary. It was &#039;Meeting the Taliban&#039; indeed. Like I said, both it and &#039;Fighting the Taliban&#039; are worth watching, anyways.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If somebody hasn&#8217;t yet tired of reading this series of comments from me, I&#8217;ll correct myself again about Langan&#8217;s documentary. It was &#8216;Meeting the Taliban&#8217; indeed. Like I said, both it and &#8216;Fighting the Taliban&#8217; are worth watching, anyways.</p>
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		<title>By: Péter</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2007/07/30/of-mass-graves-and-public-diplomacy/comment-page-1/#comment-375300</link>
		<dc:creator>Péter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 05:37:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2007/07/30/of-mass-graves-and-public-diplomacy/#comment-375300</guid>
		<description>That pic is just great, Josh, it tells it all. (I also perfectly understand the point Michael is making about precision munition, but the Afghan context does, unfortunately, give a few twists to what we can &#039;normally&#039; expect as a result of bombing.)

As to the Pakistani sovereignty argument. Well, there is the Armed activities on the territory of the Congo case from before the International Court of Justice which might be pretty relevant here. I have read the really lengthy judgement back at the time when it came out. And I have to report that international law and international lawyers are still mostly stuck with a dreamed up Westphalian image of the world, but in an inconsequential manner, actually. In its decision the ICJ essentially said that neighbouring countries can&#039;t do anything on the territory of the DRC, unless it is the DRC that attacks them, which would be the only case when they could use their right to self-defense (based on the UN Charter). As to whether it is a breach of the &#039;duty of vigilance&#039; when a government (such as that of the DRC) doesn&#039;t stop a non-state actor from attacking another state from within its own internationally recognised boundaries, they concluded that it&#039;s not a breach in the case if the government doesn&#039;t effectively control the given area from where attacks are launched by the non-state actor.

Logical? Absolutely not.

It is essentially saying that military action, by the state that is threatened by a non-state actor, is aggression, because it is the harbouring state&#039;s territory that is attacked then, but it&#039;s not a breach of the duty of vigilance on the part of the harbouring state if its territory harbours an aggressive non-state actor, since it&#039;s not really the harbouring state&#039;s territory. Mind-boggling, really.

To translate this to the Pakistani context, for simplification I&#039;ll talk of an Afghan-Pakistani equation. If Pakistan were to claim that it doesn&#039;t control its tribal areas effectively (it hasn&#039;t claimed that to my knowledge, actually), then Afghanistan couldn&#039;t attack, because it would be an aggression, and A&#039;stan couldn&#039;t even claim that Pakistan is in breach of its duty of vigilance. However, since Pakistan does claim it is doing everything possible in its tribal areas, and its stance usually is that the Afghan government and ISAF/OEF forces should do more to control cross-border movements, the situation is more complicated. It would be interesting to see this case before the ICJ and what ruling they would come to then. I do think, though, that the Pakistani line of defence would probably be that Pakistan is the victim, and it is the Afghan government and the international forces that are in breach of their duty of vigilance. (If you think back to the sort of things Musharraf said before his spring Ankara meeting with Karzai in Turkey, it is more than realistic to expect that they would be arguing like that.)

A different scenario could be the Security Council bringing a decision about this. The Security Council has already shown understanding to concerns by a state about a non-state actor&#039;s activities, allowing military action in response to that concerned state in at least one very relevant case (9-11). But would the Security Council back similar action inside Pakistan?

However, this of course is not only an international legal issue. The U.S. wouldn&#039;t push this case as far as the Security Council, really. The way to go about this is informally working out some arrangement, as it has been done up till now, although up till now arguably not enough has happened.

(I&#039;ll cross-post this international legal agony part of my comment over at my place, too, Josh, if you don&#039;t mind, since I also looked to raise this issue since a while now.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That pic is just great, Josh, it tells it all. (I also perfectly understand the point Michael is making about precision munition, but the Afghan context does, unfortunately, give a few twists to what we can &#8216;normally&#8217; expect as a result of bombing.)</p>
<p>As to the Pakistani sovereignty argument. Well, there is the Armed activities on the territory of the Congo case from before the International Court of Justice which might be pretty relevant here. I have read the really lengthy judgement back at the time when it came out. And I have to report that international law and international lawyers are still mostly stuck with a dreamed up Westphalian image of the world, but in an inconsequential manner, actually. In its decision the ICJ essentially said that neighbouring countries can&#8217;t do anything on the territory of the DRC, unless it is the DRC that attacks them, which would be the only case when they could use their right to self-defense (based on the UN Charter). As to whether it is a breach of the &#8216;duty of vigilance&#8217; when a government (such as that of the DRC) doesn&#8217;t stop a non-state actor from attacking another state from within its own internationally recognised boundaries, they concluded that it&#8217;s not a breach in the case if the government doesn&#8217;t effectively control the given area from where attacks are launched by the non-state actor.</p>
<p>Logical? Absolutely not.</p>
<p>It is essentially saying that military action, by the state that is threatened by a non-state actor, is aggression, because it is the harbouring state&#8217;s territory that is attacked then, but it&#8217;s not a breach of the duty of vigilance on the part of the harbouring state if its territory harbours an aggressive non-state actor, since it&#8217;s not really the harbouring state&#8217;s territory. Mind-boggling, really.</p>
<p>To translate this to the Pakistani context, for simplification I&#8217;ll talk of an Afghan-Pakistani equation. If Pakistan were to claim that it doesn&#8217;t control its tribal areas effectively (it hasn&#8217;t claimed that to my knowledge, actually), then Afghanistan couldn&#8217;t attack, because it would be an aggression, and A&#8217;stan couldn&#8217;t even claim that Pakistan is in breach of its duty of vigilance. However, since Pakistan does claim it is doing everything possible in its tribal areas, and its stance usually is that the Afghan government and ISAF/OEF forces should do more to control cross-border movements, the situation is more complicated. It would be interesting to see this case before the ICJ and what ruling they would come to then. I do think, though, that the Pakistani line of defence would probably be that Pakistan is the victim, and it is the Afghan government and the international forces that are in breach of their duty of vigilance. (If you think back to the sort of things Musharraf said before his spring Ankara meeting with Karzai in Turkey, it is more than realistic to expect that they would be arguing like that.)</p>
<p>A different scenario could be the Security Council bringing a decision about this. The Security Council has already shown understanding to concerns by a state about a non-state actor&#8217;s activities, allowing military action in response to that concerned state in at least one very relevant case (9-11). But would the Security Council back similar action inside Pakistan?</p>
<p>However, this of course is not only an international legal issue. The U.S. wouldn&#8217;t push this case as far as the Security Council, really. The way to go about this is informally working out some arrangement, as it has been done up till now, although up till now arguably not enough has happened.</p>
<p>(I&#8217;ll cross-post this international legal agony part of my comment over at my place, too, Josh, if you don&#8217;t mind, since I also looked to raise this issue since a while now.)</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua Foust</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2007/07/30/of-mass-graves-and-public-diplomacy/comment-page-1/#comment-375296</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua Foust</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2007 14:36:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2007/07/30/of-mass-graves-and-public-diplomacy/#comment-375296</guid>
		<description>Lee, I hope you don&#039;t think I&#039;m being anti-military. I am frustrated that their tactics do not reflect the reality on the ground, but I am absolutely rooting for them to win. Peter, that problem -- of being unable, because of political constraints, to deal with militants in a lawless area -- is deeply frustrating. If the Pakistani government will not control its own territory, which is used to launch attacks at another country, I honestly don&#039;t see where the sovereignty argument comes in -- they&#039;ve violated Afghanistan&#039;s sovereignty. Fair&#039;s fair and all that.

Michael - are you telling me a 1000 pound bomb will fit through the window of one of these, while leaving neighbors unscathed?

&lt;img src=&quot;http://www.natcapinc.com/picts/side/AfghanistanVillage_Whole.jpg&quot; width=&quot;400&quot; height=&quot;300&quot;/&gt;

Color me skeptical. Even the newest JDAMS with laser seeked bolted on the front have a CEP of 3 meters, which not only isn&#039;t just a window, but in a typical village actually is another house. When you add in that these houses are made out of dirt, and are not blast-resistant, it should be no wonder there is a lot of collateral damage.

You&#039;re right, too, that intel matters -- which is why I brought up Zakharov. He knew when he was being baited into attacking civilians, and when he could ambush and destroy the mujahideen. We don&#039;t yet have that sophistication (and, in fairness, neither did most of the Soviets).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lee, I hope you don&#8217;t think I&#8217;m being anti-military. I am frustrated that their tactics do not reflect the reality on the ground, but I am absolutely rooting for them to win. Peter, that problem &#8212; of being unable, because of political constraints, to deal with militants in a lawless area &#8212; is deeply frustrating. If the Pakistani government will not control its own territory, which is used to launch attacks at another country, I honestly don&#8217;t see where the sovereignty argument comes in &#8212; they&#8217;ve violated Afghanistan&#8217;s sovereignty. Fair&#8217;s fair and all that.</p>
<p>Michael &#8211; are you telling me a 1000 pound bomb will fit through the window of one of these, while leaving neighbors unscathed?</p>
<p><img src="http://www.natcapinc.com/picts/side/AfghanistanVillage_Whole.jpg" width="400" height="300"/></p>
<p>Color me skeptical. Even the newest JDAMS with laser seeked bolted on the front have a CEP of 3 meters, which not only isn&#8217;t just a window, but in a typical village actually is another house. When you add in that these houses are made out of dirt, and are not blast-resistant, it should be no wonder there is a lot of collateral damage.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re right, too, that intel matters &#8212; which is why I brought up Zakharov. He knew when he was being baited into attacking civilians, and when he could ambush and destroy the mujahideen. We don&#8217;t yet have that sophistication (and, in fairness, neither did most of the Soviets).</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2007/07/30/of-mass-graves-and-public-diplomacy/comment-page-1/#comment-375295</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2007 13:57:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2007/07/30/of-mass-graves-and-public-diplomacy/#comment-375295</guid>
		<description>A 1000-lb bomb can be pretty precise, blowing up one house through a window and completely missing the house next door (and not even wounding the occupants).  Of course, if its targeted at the wrong house, none of that matters.  This is why it&#039;s so important to have intel (boots) on the ground.... and not just satellites and fancy equipment in the sky</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A 1000-lb bomb can be pretty precise, blowing up one house through a window and completely missing the house next door (and not even wounding the occupants).  Of course, if its targeted at the wrong house, none of that matters.  This is why it&#8217;s so important to have intel (boots) on the ground&#8230;. and not just satellites and fancy equipment in the sky</p>
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		<title>By: Péter</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2007/07/30/of-mass-graves-and-public-diplomacy/comment-page-1/#comment-375294</link>
		<dc:creator>Péter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2007 11:57:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2007/07/30/of-mass-graves-and-public-diplomacy/#comment-375294</guid>
		<description>Coming to think of it, if somebody wants to see that documentary I should probably correct myself: it was another documentary by Langan, not &#039;Meeting the Taliban&#039;, but one with the very different title of &#039;Fighting the Taliban&#039;. Both were fine, anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Coming to think of it, if somebody wants to see that documentary I should probably correct myself: it was another documentary by Langan, not &#8216;Meeting the Taliban&#8217;, but one with the very different title of &#8216;Fighting the Taliban&#8217;. Both were fine, anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: Péter</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2007/07/30/of-mass-graves-and-public-diplomacy/comment-page-1/#comment-375293</link>
		<dc:creator>Péter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2007 11:54:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2007/07/30/of-mass-graves-and-public-diplomacy/#comment-375293</guid>
		<description>Zakharov seems to have been pretty smart indeed. I do bet though even he, in his era, would have liked to go over that Pakistani border to &#039;un-restrain&#039; himself a little.
I&#039;ve just seen Sean Langan&#039;s 2006 documentary, &#039;Meeting the Taliban&#039;, and found it so telling how a U.S. officer in Kunar province talked there of his frustrations, that he is &#039;privy to the intel&#039;, and knows therefore what&#039;s going on over the border. That conversation between Langan, the reporter, and the military officer, took place during the night by the way, in some forest, with soldiers seeking cover from the potshots coming from several directions at the time.
Soldiers who feel their hands are tied anyway probably find it all the more difficult therefore to hold back when there&#039;s contact. But that&#039;s not to say they shouldn&#039;t, sometimes, of course.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Zakharov seems to have been pretty smart indeed. I do bet though even he, in his era, would have liked to go over that Pakistani border to &#8216;un-restrain&#8217; himself a little.<br />
I&#8217;ve just seen Sean Langan&#8217;s 2006 documentary, &#8216;Meeting the Taliban&#8217;, and found it so telling how a U.S. officer in Kunar province talked there of his frustrations, that he is &#8216;privy to the intel&#8217;, and knows therefore what&#8217;s going on over the border. That conversation between Langan, the reporter, and the military officer, took place during the night by the way, in some forest, with soldiers seeking cover from the potshots coming from several directions at the time.<br />
Soldiers who feel their hands are tied anyway probably find it all the more difficult therefore to hold back when there&#8217;s contact. But that&#8217;s not to say they shouldn&#8217;t, sometimes, of course.</p>
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		<title>By: Nathan</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2007/07/30/of-mass-graves-and-public-diplomacy/comment-page-1/#comment-375291</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2007 06:23:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2007/07/30/of-mass-graves-and-public-diplomacy/#comment-375291</guid>
		<description>Lee, you can always reach me &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.registan.net/index.php/contact-form/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;. My email address is my first name @registan.net.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lee, you can always reach me <a href="http://www.registan.net/index.php/contact-form/" rel="nofollow">here</a>. My email address is my first name @registan.net.</p>
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		<title>By: Lee</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2007/07/30/of-mass-graves-and-public-diplomacy/comment-page-1/#comment-375290</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2007 05:08:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2007/07/30/of-mass-graves-and-public-diplomacy/#comment-375290</guid>
		<description>Joshua or Nathan,
Please send your contact info to me @ simwolfspider@excite.com, The US Miltary deserves fair repesentation on your site, additionally, I believe I could add gainful insight for everyone who participates on this site. -Lee</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joshua or Nathan,<br />
Please send your contact info to me @ <a href="mailto:simwolfspider@excite.com">simwolfspider@excite.com</a>, The US Miltary deserves fair repesentation on your site, additionally, I believe I could add gainful insight for everyone who participates on this site. -Lee</p>
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