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	<title>Comments on: Benazir Bhutto Assassinated</title>
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	<description>Central Asia News -- All Central Asia, All The Time</description>
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		<title>By: Steve LeVine</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2007/12/27/benazir-bhutto-assassinated/comment-page-1/#comment-376080</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve LeVine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Dec 2007 22:49:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2007/12/27/benazir-bhutto-assassinated/#comment-376080</guid>
		<description>I can&#039;t say I respected Bhutto. I&#039;ve savaged her relentlessly on my own blog without a compliment, the U.S. for backing her, and Musharraf for making a deal with her. It seems I&#039;m allowing a pet peeve about popular Taliban history spill over into the Bhutto story. I&#039;ll take a new gander at Coll later, but to the degree that he writes that Bhutto was complicit in the rise of the Taliban, he&#039;s wrong. Steve&#039;s a friend, but that would be an inaccurate reading of how the Taliban&#039;s military march played out. By that measure, much of the whole world would be &quot;complicit.&quot; Quite simply, Bhutto had no -- and could have no -- role in the Taliban&#039;s seizure of power. She played the same role as she did in the ISI&#039;s support of various mujahedin factions in her first turn at power, which was none. In any case, I think we may be drifting into &quot;talking past each other mode,&quot; so let&#039;s leave it there. Happy holidays and best, Steve 
http://www.oilandglory.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t say I respected Bhutto. I&#8217;ve savaged her relentlessly on my own blog without a compliment, the U.S. for backing her, and Musharraf for making a deal with her. It seems I&#8217;m allowing a pet peeve about popular Taliban history spill over into the Bhutto story. I&#8217;ll take a new gander at Coll later, but to the degree that he writes that Bhutto was complicit in the rise of the Taliban, he&#8217;s wrong. Steve&#8217;s a friend, but that would be an inaccurate reading of how the Taliban&#8217;s military march played out. By that measure, much of the whole world would be &#8220;complicit.&#8221; Quite simply, Bhutto had no &#8212; and could have no &#8212; role in the Taliban&#8217;s seizure of power. She played the same role as she did in the ISI&#8217;s support of various mujahedin factions in her first turn at power, which was none. In any case, I think we may be drifting into &#8220;talking past each other mode,&#8221; so let&#8217;s leave it there. Happy holidays and best, Steve<br />
<a href="http://www.oilandglory.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.oilandglory.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: Joshua Foust</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2007/12/27/benazir-bhutto-assassinated/comment-page-1/#comment-376079</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua Foust</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Dec 2007 22:37:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2007/12/27/benazir-bhutto-assassinated/#comment-376079</guid>
		<description>Steve, you&#039;re misunderstanding me (or I&#039;m being really unclear, or both). Bhutto had nothing to do with the Civil-Mil break, but that break is why the country remains messed up, violently yanked back and forth between corrupt tribal (&quot;Feudal&quot; though is probably more accurate) leadership and a military dictatorship.

As for the Taliban rise, Steve Coll catalogs how Bhutto was complicit in assenting to the Taliban&#039;s sweep across Afghanistan. I don&#039;t doubt that she had legitimate reasons for wanting to stabilize the country—the mujahideen war, to which we in the U.S. have paid precious little attention, was unbelievable misery—but that break in the government, with the military doing its own thing and the civilian government does its own thing, contributed. She was a contributing part of that breach: Sharif mishandling everything hadn&#039;t yet happened, but she didn&#039;t even try to intervene even while she knew what was going on. 

I would contend that transcending her feudal roots would have healed the breach, and maybe even have brought the military a few steps back from its mad blind brinksmanship with India. At the very least, it would have shown her to be something a bit beyond the run-of-the-mill corrupt princess she was.

I&#039;m sorry to speak harshly of a woman I know you respected, but I think there is a post-death tendency to gloss over the ways she contributed to the country that eventually killed—like Time Magazine calling her a &quot;martyr.&quot; She is nothing of the sort, just a tragic figure cut down in an increasingly tragic country.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve, you&#8217;re misunderstanding me (or I&#8217;m being really unclear, or both). Bhutto had nothing to do with the Civil-Mil break, but that break is why the country remains messed up, violently yanked back and forth between corrupt tribal (&#8220;Feudal&#8221; though is probably more accurate) leadership and a military dictatorship.</p>
<p>As for the Taliban rise, Steve Coll catalogs how Bhutto was complicit in assenting to the Taliban&#8217;s sweep across Afghanistan. I don&#8217;t doubt that she had legitimate reasons for wanting to stabilize the country—the mujahideen war, to which we in the U.S. have paid precious little attention, was unbelievable misery—but that break in the government, with the military doing its own thing and the civilian government does its own thing, contributed. She was a contributing part of that breach: Sharif mishandling everything hadn&#8217;t yet happened, but she didn&#8217;t even try to intervene even while she knew what was going on. </p>
<p>I would contend that transcending her feudal roots would have healed the breach, and maybe even have brought the military a few steps back from its mad blind brinksmanship with India. At the very least, it would have shown her to be something a bit beyond the run-of-the-mill corrupt princess she was.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sorry to speak harshly of a woman I know you respected, but I think there is a post-death tendency to gloss over the ways she contributed to the country that eventually killed—like Time Magazine calling her a &#8220;martyr.&#8221; She is nothing of the sort, just a tragic figure cut down in an increasingly tragic country.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve LeVine</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2007/12/27/benazir-bhutto-assassinated/comment-page-1/#comment-376078</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve LeVine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Dec 2007 22:10:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2007/12/27/benazir-bhutto-assassinated/#comment-376078</guid>
		<description>Josh, why do you say that Bhutto contributed to the Taliban&#039;s rise? And how did she contribute to the &quot;break&quot; between the civilian and military? That is how the country has worked since its inception. She no more contributed to that than to the country&#039;s borders. She&#039;s at fault for a lot, namely failing to break with her feudal past and for slipping down the same corrupt slope as the rest. It seems we are posing the same question in all these unfortunate events: &quot;Who lost ... (fill in the blank) Russia, China, Afghanistan.&quot; The Taliban rose because of the Taliban, because of Afghanistan&#039;s condition, because of the mujahedin&#039;s failure. Without all that, the assistance of the ISI would have been naught. And it&#039;s also why the Taliban has managed to come back -- it does have a grassroots following. 

http://www.oilandglory.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Josh, why do you say that Bhutto contributed to the Taliban&#8217;s rise? And how did she contribute to the &#8220;break&#8221; between the civilian and military? That is how the country has worked since its inception. She no more contributed to that than to the country&#8217;s borders. She&#8217;s at fault for a lot, namely failing to break with her feudal past and for slipping down the same corrupt slope as the rest. It seems we are posing the same question in all these unfortunate events: &#8220;Who lost &#8230; (fill in the blank) Russia, China, Afghanistan.&#8221; The Taliban rose because of the Taliban, because of Afghanistan&#8217;s condition, because of the mujahedin&#8217;s failure. Without all that, the assistance of the ISI would have been naught. And it&#8217;s also why the Taliban has managed to come back &#8212; it does have a grassroots following. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.oilandglory.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.oilandglory.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: Joshua Foust</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2007/12/27/benazir-bhutto-assassinated/comment-page-1/#comment-376077</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua Foust</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Dec 2007 21:52:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2007/12/27/benazir-bhutto-assassinated/#comment-376077</guid>
		<description>Steve, you&#039;re absolutely right, and if I&#039;m unclear in any way I don&#039;t want it to be.  I said, &quot;Bhutto is in large part responsible for the rise of the Taliban—they came to power on her watch, and were tacitly supported as both proxy warriors in Kashmir and a &#039;stabilizing presence&#039; in Afghanistan.&quot; 

I didn&#039;t say creation here, though I probably did as a shorthand in my GTalk conversation with Jezebel (which I didn&#039;t realize was going to be cut and pasted into an entire post; I thought it was either background or for quotes for another post). But Bhutto did contribute a lot to the Taliban&#039;s rise, and the role of the extremists madrassas that created them—that&#039;s the causation I&#039;m laying out here.

And the break between civilian and military? I say it&#039;s a big reason why the country is so screwed up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve, you&#8217;re absolutely right, and if I&#8217;m unclear in any way I don&#8217;t want it to be.  I said, &#8220;Bhutto is in large part responsible for the rise of the Taliban—they came to power on her watch, and were tacitly supported as both proxy warriors in Kashmir and a &#8216;stabilizing presence&#8217; in Afghanistan.&#8221; </p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t say creation here, though I probably did as a shorthand in my GTalk conversation with Jezebel (which I didn&#8217;t realize was going to be cut and pasted into an entire post; I thought it was either background or for quotes for another post). But Bhutto did contribute a lot to the Taliban&#8217;s rise, and the role of the extremists madrassas that created them—that&#8217;s the causation I&#8217;m laying out here.</p>
<p>And the break between civilian and military? I say it&#8217;s a big reason why the country is so screwed up.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve LeVine</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2007/12/27/benazir-bhutto-assassinated/comment-page-1/#comment-376076</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve LeVine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Dec 2007 21:47:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2007/12/27/benazir-bhutto-assassinated/#comment-376076</guid>
		<description>Hi Josh: nice rolling coverage today. One quibble. The Taliban are not a Bhutto &quot;creation.&quot; I&#039;d have thought that by now, particularly after Steve Coll&#039;s book, that the record is clear: the Taliban rose independently. Both Bhutto and the ISI were caught flat-footed by the sudden uprising of the Taliban in Kandahar back in 1994, then tried to get in front of the parade. Bhutto&#039;s main interaction with Mullah Omar et al was in getting them to guard the famous commercial convoy that year between Chaman and the Turkmenistan border, a show meant to demonstrate that the pipeline-and-trade route would work. The ISI was integral to the Taliban&#039;s subsequent military successes, particularly the final run in August-September 1996 into Kabul. But if Musharraf himself is accused today of not keeping a handle on the ISI, how is it that Bhutto controlled the ISI then? The answer is that Bhutto didn&#039;t. That was Bhutto&#039;s modus vivendi as prime minister both times -- she stayed on the economic side and did not meddle with the Army or the ISI. And when Nawaz Sharif went too far, he ended up in Saudi Arabia. 

Steve LeVine
The Oil and the Glory
http://www.oilandglory.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Josh: nice rolling coverage today. One quibble. The Taliban are not a Bhutto &#8220;creation.&#8221; I&#8217;d have thought that by now, particularly after Steve Coll&#8217;s book, that the record is clear: the Taliban rose independently. Both Bhutto and the ISI were caught flat-footed by the sudden uprising of the Taliban in Kandahar back in 1994, then tried to get in front of the parade. Bhutto&#8217;s main interaction with Mullah Omar et al was in getting them to guard the famous commercial convoy that year between Chaman and the Turkmenistan border, a show meant to demonstrate that the pipeline-and-trade route would work. The ISI was integral to the Taliban&#8217;s subsequent military successes, particularly the final run in August-September 1996 into Kabul. But if Musharraf himself is accused today of not keeping a handle on the ISI, how is it that Bhutto controlled the ISI then? The answer is that Bhutto didn&#8217;t. That was Bhutto&#8217;s modus vivendi as prime minister both times &#8212; she stayed on the economic side and did not meddle with the Army or the ISI. And when Nawaz Sharif went too far, he ended up in Saudi Arabia. </p>
<p>Steve LeVine<br />
The Oil and the Glory<br />
<a href="http://www.oilandglory.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.oilandglory.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: Joshua Foust</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2007/12/27/benazir-bhutto-assassinated/comment-page-1/#comment-376075</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua Foust</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Dec 2007 21:35:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2007/12/27/benazir-bhutto-assassinated/#comment-376075</guid>
		<description>Michael, Jezebel is part of the Gawker family—so they snark, they mock, they turn everything into a joke. Moe, however, is legit. She is far better informed than she lets on... hell, most of their commenters are. But I try not to judge a site by its commenters unless they&#039;re particularly insipid or particularly inspired.

Inkan, I don&#039;t think it was a failure of security, at least in terms of it breaking. There is only so much security to be had when you&#039;re &lt;a href=&quot;http://wonkette.com/338237/before-and-after-the-assassination-in-photos&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;sticking your head out of a moonroof&lt;/a&gt; on a crowded street. And there are only so many provisions you can take at a massive public rally. But there may well have been a failure here somewhere, it&#039;s just not obvious.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael, Jezebel is part of the Gawker family—so they snark, they mock, they turn everything into a joke. Moe, however, is legit. She is far better informed than she lets on&#8230; hell, most of their commenters are. But I try not to judge a site by its commenters unless they&#8217;re particularly insipid or particularly inspired.</p>
<p>Inkan, I don&#8217;t think it was a failure of security, at least in terms of it breaking. There is only so much security to be had when you&#8217;re <a href="http://wonkette.com/338237/before-and-after-the-assassination-in-photos" rel="nofollow">sticking your head out of a moonroof</a> on a crowded street. And there are only so many provisions you can take at a massive public rally. But there may well have been a failure here somewhere, it&#8217;s just not obvious.</p>
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		<title>By: Inkan1969</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2007/12/27/benazir-bhutto-assassinated/comment-page-1/#comment-376073</link>
		<dc:creator>Inkan1969</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Dec 2007 21:20:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2007/12/27/benazir-bhutto-assassinated/#comment-376073</guid>
		<description>How could this have been allowed to happen?  Why did Bhutto&#039;s security fail?  Everyone knew people wanted to do this to her along with every other Pakistani politician.  How could provisions taken to prevent this have failed?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How could this have been allowed to happen?  Why did Bhutto&#8217;s security fail?  Everyone knew people wanted to do this to her along with every other Pakistani politician.  How could provisions taken to prevent this have failed?</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Hancock</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2007/12/27/benazir-bhutto-assassinated/comment-page-1/#comment-376069</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Hancock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Dec 2007 16:49:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2007/12/27/benazir-bhutto-assassinated/#comment-376069</guid>
		<description>Never even heard of Jezebel before.  Seems like the kind of newsblog for the tres chic yuppie assholes that like to sit in coffee houses with their laptops and pretend that that&#039;s somehow social.  Nice how they lament the complete ignorance of their coworkers and family members while saying things as stupid as Bhutto certainly being murdered by Musharraf while being a guiding light certain to win the January election.

Having a passing knowledge of Pakistan does not make me cooler than anyone.  Just the opposite, in my opinion.  I don&#039;t like it when people lord their Economist subscriptions over others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Never even heard of Jezebel before.  Seems like the kind of newsblog for the tres chic yuppie assholes that like to sit in coffee houses with their laptops and pretend that that&#8217;s somehow social.  Nice how they lament the complete ignorance of their coworkers and family members while saying things as stupid as Bhutto certainly being murdered by Musharraf while being a guiding light certain to win the January election.</p>
<p>Having a passing knowledge of Pakistan does not make me cooler than anyone.  Just the opposite, in my opinion.  I don&#8217;t like it when people lord their Economist subscriptions over others.</p>
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