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	<title>Comments on: Why Bother Researching, Pt. II</title>
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	<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2008/08/26/why-bother-researching-pt-ii/</link>
	<description>All Central Asia, All The Time</description>
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		<title>By: archon</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2008/08/26/why-bother-researching-pt-ii/comment-page-2/#comment-378284</link>
		<dc:creator>archon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2008 21:16:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Excuse me: &quot;rough and readies.&quot;

I see that Sergei Lavrov, the Russian Foreign Minister, is now demanding that the OSCE put all the relevant reports of its operatives on he table (ITAR-TASS, 9-2-08.)

It appears that the South Ossetian contingent of the JCC has its own website.  (I think sojcc.ru/eng will probably take you there.)  They say, of course, just what they _would_ say.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excuse me: &#8220;rough and readies.&#8221;</p>
<p>I see that Sergei Lavrov, the Russian Foreign Minister, is now demanding that the OSCE put all the relevant reports of its operatives on he table (ITAR-TASS, 9-2-08.)</p>
<p>It appears that the South Ossetian contingent of the JCC has its own website.  (I think sojcc.ru/eng will probably take you there.)  They say, of course, just what they _would_ say.</p>
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		<title>By: archon</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2008/08/26/why-bother-researching-pt-ii/comment-page-2/#comment-378282</link>
		<dc:creator>archon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2008 20:11:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Perhaps I confuse myself, but isn&#039;t it pretty well undisputed that a stream of &quot;rough and regulars&quot; from North Ossetia came through the Roki Tunnel well in advance of the 58th Army?  (The South Ossetians, of course, claim they knew a Georgian offensive was in the making.)  I seem to recall that the Georgian representative, in his address to the Security Council delivered about 1:30 a.m. on 8/8 (8:00 a.m. Georgia time?) complains of &quot;mercenaries&quot; coming through the tunnel, but makes no mention of the 58th Army.  He made a great to-do about it in the next meeting, which convened on the afternoon of the 8th.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps I confuse myself, but isn&#8217;t it pretty well undisputed that a stream of &#8220;rough and regulars&#8221; from North Ossetia came through the Roki Tunnel well in advance of the 58th Army?  (The South Ossetians, of course, claim they knew a Georgian offensive was in the making.)  I seem to recall that the Georgian representative, in his address to the Security Council delivered about 1:30 a.m. on 8/8 (8:00 a.m. Georgia time?) complains of &#8220;mercenaries&#8221; coming through the tunnel, but makes no mention of the 58th Army.  He made a great to-do about it in the next meeting, which convened on the afternoon of the 8th.</p>
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		<title>By: Oldschool Boy</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2008/08/26/why-bother-researching-pt-ii/comment-page-2/#comment-378281</link>
		<dc:creator>Oldschool Boy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2008 19:46:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I do not know what kind of artilery it is that takes days and weeks to bring in. Are we talking about that huge German cannon used during WWII to shell Leningrad that moved on rails I have seen in a documentary movie?
Otherwise, all artilery I have seen are pretty mobile, either towed by a truck or self-propelled, like a tank.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do not know what kind of artilery it is that takes days and weeks to bring in. Are we talking about that huge German cannon used during WWII to shell Leningrad that moved on rails I have seen in a documentary movie?<br />
Otherwise, all artilery I have seen are pretty mobile, either towed by a truck or self-propelled, like a tank.</p>
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		<title>By: AMac</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2008/08/26/why-bother-researching-pt-ii/comment-page-2/#comment-378279</link>
		<dc:creator>AMac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2008 18:39:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;It takes many days if not weeks to bring in the kind of heavy artillery about which the commander is talking into or near the conflict zone.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Skepticism is called for.  The Wired article relies an analyst who quotes a Georgian newspaper account in which Georgian artillery officers celebrate their &quot;triumphs.&quot;  The weapons systems that are named are either self-propelled or towed.  Most or all are designed for rapid setup and breakdown.  They can fire at a distance of 20 to 40 km from the target.  The degradation in accuracy caused by use at extreme ranges are not a problem for area bombardment, as the residents of Tskhinvali know to their sorrow.  Consulting a map, Tskhinvali is about 30 km north of Gori, about 20 km north of the boundary formed by the Security Corridor, and about 5 km north of the South Ossetia/Kartli border.

Thus, it would appear that the named weapons have rapidity of setup and a long-enough reach so that the Georgians had no need to pre-position them in the conflict zone (though, firing from outside of it automatically would cause a conflict zone to expand, it seems to me).  Certainly no need to pre-position in South Ossetia itself.  Quick Google searches --

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.enemyforces.com/artillery/pion.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;2S7 203 mm Pion self-propelled artillery gun&lt;/a&gt;.  46 tons (for comparison, an M1 tank weighs 61 tons).  Max. road speed 51 km/h, maximum range 47 km, &quot;shoot &amp; scoot&quot; capability.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/missile_systems/artillery/gradlar/GRADLAR.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;GRADLAR&lt;/a&gt; is an Israeli upgrade to the Soviet-era BM-21 GRAD multiple rocket system.  Mounted on a truck chassis.  Maximum range 45 km.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2S3_Akatsiya&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;152 mm Akatsiya self-propelled howitzer&lt;/a&gt;.  28 tons, max. road speed 63 km/h, maximum range 24 km.

122 mm D30 howitzer [Wikipedia].  Towed behind a truck, 3 tons, maximum range 22 km.

I would assume that many of these guns were moved into South Ossetia &lt;i&gt;after&lt;/i&gt; the onset of the August 7 attack.  Ranges would have to be much, much shorter to target something the size of a bridge, or to employ them in an anti-armor role.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>It takes many days if not weeks to bring in the kind of heavy artillery about which the commander is talking into or near the conflict zone.</p></blockquote>
<p>Skepticism is called for.  The Wired article relies an analyst who quotes a Georgian newspaper account in which Georgian artillery officers celebrate their &#8220;triumphs.&#8221;  The weapons systems that are named are either self-propelled or towed.  Most or all are designed for rapid setup and breakdown.  They can fire at a distance of 20 to 40 km from the target.  The degradation in accuracy caused by use at extreme ranges are not a problem for area bombardment, as the residents of Tskhinvali know to their sorrow.  Consulting a map, Tskhinvali is about 30 km north of Gori, about 20 km north of the boundary formed by the Security Corridor, and about 5 km north of the South Ossetia/Kartli border.</p>
<p>Thus, it would appear that the named weapons have rapidity of setup and a long-enough reach so that the Georgians had no need to pre-position them in the conflict zone (though, firing from outside of it automatically would cause a conflict zone to expand, it seems to me).  Certainly no need to pre-position in South Ossetia itself.  Quick Google searches &#8211;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.enemyforces.com/artillery/pion.htm" rel="nofollow">2S7 203 mm Pion self-propelled artillery gun</a>.  46 tons (for comparison, an M1 tank weighs 61 tons).  Max. road speed 51 km/h, maximum range 47 km, &#8220;shoot &amp; scoot&#8221; capability.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/missile_systems/artillery/gradlar/GRADLAR.html" rel="nofollow">GRADLAR</a> is an Israeli upgrade to the Soviet-era BM-21 GRAD multiple rocket system.  Mounted on a truck chassis.  Maximum range 45 km.</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2S3_Akatsiya" rel="nofollow">152 mm Akatsiya self-propelled howitzer</a>.  28 tons, max. road speed 63 km/h, maximum range 24 km.</p>
<p>122 mm D30 howitzer [Wikipedia].  Towed behind a truck, 3 tons, maximum range 22 km.</p>
<p>I would assume that many of these guns were moved into South Ossetia <i>after</i> the onset of the August 7 attack.  Ranges would have to be much, much shorter to target something the size of a bridge, or to employ them in an anti-armor role.</p>
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		<title>By: archon</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2008/08/26/why-bother-researching-pt-ii/comment-page-2/#comment-378277</link>
		<dc:creator>archon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2008 17:11:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>From the Spilt Beans file:

David Axe, Wired News, 9-3-08, Did Georgia Anticipate the South Ossetian War?:

But that&#039;s not the whole story, according to Gordon Hahn of the Monterey Institute of International Studies and other institutions.  In a weekly distributed email circular, Hahn claims Georgia also moved forces into place long before the fighting started:

Georgian military officials have inadvertently revealed that they had brought heavy artillery into the conflict zone very early on.  For instance, artillery brigade commanders told a Georgian newspaper {Kviris Politra} that Georgian artillery used in the zone on August 7 included {see article for catalog of specific equipment}. . . . It takes many days if not weeks to bring in the kind of heavy artillery about which the commander is talking into or near the conflict zone. . . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From the Spilt Beans file:</p>
<p>David Axe, Wired News, 9-3-08, Did Georgia Anticipate the South Ossetian War?:</p>
<p>But that&#8217;s not the whole story, according to Gordon Hahn of the Monterey Institute of International Studies and other institutions.  In a weekly distributed email circular, Hahn claims Georgia also moved forces into place long before the fighting started:</p>
<p>Georgian military officials have inadvertently revealed that they had brought heavy artillery into the conflict zone very early on.  For instance, artillery brigade commanders told a Georgian newspaper {Kviris Politra} that Georgian artillery used in the zone on August 7 included {see article for catalog of specific equipment}. . . . It takes many days if not weeks to bring in the kind of heavy artillery about which the commander is talking into or near the conflict zone. . . .</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan Erickson</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2008/08/26/why-bother-researching-pt-ii/comment-page-2/#comment-378256</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan Erickson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 17:11:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&quot;Totten has accurately reported what the Georgian government is on record as saying about their motives for moving into South Ossetia&quot;. 

Yes, I agree. Totten should get a gold star for toeing the official Saakashvili line.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Totten has accurately reported what the Georgian government is on record as saying about their motives for moving into South Ossetia&#8221;. </p>
<p>Yes, I agree. Totten should get a gold star for toeing the official Saakashvili line.</p>
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		<title>By: AMac</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2008/08/26/why-bother-researching-pt-ii/comment-page-2/#comment-378255</link>
		<dc:creator>AMac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 16:52:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>As the IWPR states, I think &quot;The timing of the Russian intervention is crucial.&quot;  Totten has accurately reported what the Georgian government is on record as saying about their motives for moving into South Ossetia. 

* Saakashvili shoud be pressed to substantiate his claim as to timing, or at least to state his Aug. 7 sources. 

* Other parties have information yet to be cited in open-source literature.  The Russians (obviously), nations with satellites overhead (perhaps), and the OSCE (JPKF presence at Didi Gupta but not at the tunnel itself).

* The matter is probably quite complex.  It was incredibly foolish for the Georgians to ignore Bryza&#039;s sound advice.  Their reasoning on Aug. 7 remains unexplained.  Perhaps they believed they had a fleeting chance to replay the 1995 Croatian wresting of the Krijina from Serbia.  I speculate that Putin supplied Saakashvili with corrupted intelligence to tempt him into taking that fateful first step northward from Gori to Tskhinvali.  Certainly, Putin was ready to exploit whatever gift Saakashvili chose to offer him.

Hopefully, the timeline of those tragic days will be corrected and fleshed out as more and better information comes to light.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As the IWPR states, I think &#8220;The timing of the Russian intervention is crucial.&#8221;  Totten has accurately reported what the Georgian government is on record as saying about their motives for moving into South Ossetia. </p>
<p>* Saakashvili shoud be pressed to substantiate his claim as to timing, or at least to state his Aug. 7 sources. </p>
<p>* Other parties have information yet to be cited in open-source literature.  The Russians (obviously), nations with satellites overhead (perhaps), and the OSCE (JPKF presence at Didi Gupta but not at the tunnel itself).</p>
<p>* The matter is probably quite complex.  It was incredibly foolish for the Georgians to ignore Bryza&#8217;s sound advice.  Their reasoning on Aug. 7 remains unexplained.  Perhaps they believed they had a fleeting chance to replay the 1995 Croatian wresting of the Krijina from Serbia.  I speculate that Putin supplied Saakashvili with corrupted intelligence to tempt him into taking that fateful first step northward from Gori to Tskhinvali.  Certainly, Putin was ready to exploit whatever gift Saakashvili chose to offer him.</p>
<p>Hopefully, the timeline of those tragic days will be corrected and fleshed out as more and better information comes to light.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan Erickson</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2008/08/26/why-bother-researching-pt-ii/comment-page-2/#comment-378254</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan Erickson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 16:24:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I was just worried for a second that you were trying to support Totten... good to see you haven&#039;t been fooled, my apologies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was just worried for a second that you were trying to support Totten&#8230; good to see you haven&#8217;t been fooled, my apologies.</p>
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		<title>By: AMac</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2008/08/26/why-bother-researching-pt-ii/comment-page-2/#comment-378253</link>
		<dc:creator>AMac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 16:19:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>10:43am
&gt; Well, duh, of course Bryza corroborated Saakashvili’s version of events... The other reports can be similarly disregarded...

5:38am
&gt; The “Georgia responded to Russian tanks in the tunnel” story &lt;i&gt;surfaced at [Totten&#039;s] site&lt;/i&gt;, as far as I can tell

My own opinion is set forth in Totten&#039;s comments:  the preponderance of the evidence suggests that the lead elements of the 58th Army transited the Roki Tunnel early on August 8, as a response to the Georgian attack on Tskhinvali.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>10:43am<br />
&gt; Well, duh, of course Bryza corroborated Saakashvili’s version of events&#8230; The other reports can be similarly disregarded&#8230;</p>
<p>5:38am<br />
&gt; The “Georgia responded to Russian tanks in the tunnel” story <i>surfaced at [Totten's] site</i>, as far as I can tell</p>
<p>My own opinion is set forth in Totten&#8217;s comments:  the preponderance of the evidence suggests that the lead elements of the 58th Army transited the Roki Tunnel early on August 8, as a response to the Georgian attack on Tskhinvali.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan Erickson</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2008/08/26/why-bother-researching-pt-ii/comment-page-2/#comment-378252</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan Erickson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 15:43:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Well, duh, of course Bryza corroborated Saakashvili&#039;s version of events--he was talking to the Georgian leadership, as he says himself. The other reports can be similarly disregarded, as they cite only reports from Georgian authorities, who obviously had a strong reason to paint a different version of events.

Perhaps the strongest case against a &quot;Russia was invading so we had to push them out&quot; argument is why didn&#039;t Georgia mention that when it decided to carry out operation &quot;Clean Fields&quot;? Yes, Russian invasion of South Ossetia would have been a strong reason for Georgia to invade, but why wasn&#039;t it mentioned &lt;a href=&quot;http://civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=18941&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;, when Georgia announced it was invading?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, duh, of course Bryza corroborated Saakashvili&#8217;s version of events&#8211;he was talking to the Georgian leadership, as he says himself. The other reports can be similarly disregarded, as they cite only reports from Georgian authorities, who obviously had a strong reason to paint a different version of events.</p>
<p>Perhaps the strongest case against a &#8220;Russia was invading so we had to push them out&#8221; argument is why didn&#8217;t Georgia mention that when it decided to carry out operation &#8220;Clean Fields&#8221;? Yes, Russian invasion of South Ossetia would have been a strong reason for Georgia to invade, but why wasn&#8217;t it mentioned <a href="http://civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=18941" rel="nofollow">here</a>, when Georgia announced it was invading?</p>
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