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	<title>Comments on: Recognition</title>
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		<title>By: Ryan Erickson</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2008/08/27/recognition/comment-page-1/#comment-378136</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan Erickson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 12:06:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2008/08/27/recognition/#comment-378136</guid>
		<description>jbd, Saakashvili wasn&#039;t lawfully elected. I was in Tbilisi from July 2007 well through March of this year--there to see the November riots, the subsequent &quot;election campaign,&quot; and the &quot;election.&quot; 

Opposition candidates had an uphill battle. First of all, because they had only 45 days to campaign, thanks to the State of Emergency that Saakashvili put into effect after November 7 which banned political gatherings. Secondly, they were outspent to a ridiculous degree--Saakashvili spent around 14.4 million USD; next closest was Gachechiladze at 465,000 USD (http://civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=17163). 

Part of Saakashvili&#039;s money went to all of the brand new tractors that appeared in every village of Georgia during the campaign, each with his campaign poster in it. Some of it went to bribing voters (http://civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=16628).Then there were the threats; one of my Georgian friends, a business owner, was told by the financial police that if she didn&#039;t vote for Saakashvili, they might just find a &quot;mistake&quot; in her books.

Come election day, there were more irregularities than I care to count. Why weren&#039;t they reported? Mainly because the West had long ago decided that Saakashvili was the candidate that they wanted to win so they didn&#039;t bother to dig too deeply. By the time some of the ballot stuffing came to light (http://civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=17524), it was too late--Saakashvili had long been inaugurated.

If the primary reason we stand behind Georgia is that it is a &quot;Beacon of Democracy,&quot; then we should seriously reconsider why we support Saakashvili, not why Russia came to South Ossetia&#039;s aid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>jbd, Saakashvili wasn&#8217;t lawfully elected. I was in Tbilisi from July 2007 well through March of this year&#8211;there to see the November riots, the subsequent &#8220;election campaign,&#8221; and the &#8220;election.&#8221; </p>
<p>Opposition candidates had an uphill battle. First of all, because they had only 45 days to campaign, thanks to the State of Emergency that Saakashvili put into effect after November 7 which banned political gatherings. Secondly, they were outspent to a ridiculous degree&#8211;Saakashvili spent around 14.4 million USD; next closest was Gachechiladze at 465,000 USD (<a href="http://civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=17163" rel="nofollow">http://civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=17163</a>). </p>
<p>Part of Saakashvili&#8217;s money went to all of the brand new tractors that appeared in every village of Georgia during the campaign, each with his campaign poster in it. Some of it went to bribing voters (<a href="http://civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=16628" rel="nofollow">http://civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=16628</a>).Then there were the threats; one of my Georgian friends, a business owner, was told by the financial police that if she didn&#8217;t vote for Saakashvili, they might just find a &#8220;mistake&#8221; in her books.</p>
<p>Come election day, there were more irregularities than I care to count. Why weren&#8217;t they reported? Mainly because the West had long ago decided that Saakashvili was the candidate that they wanted to win so they didn&#8217;t bother to dig too deeply. By the time some of the ballot stuffing came to light (<a href="http://civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=17524" rel="nofollow">http://civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=17524</a>), it was too late&#8211;Saakashvili had long been inaugurated.</p>
<p>If the primary reason we stand behind Georgia is that it is a &#8220;Beacon of Democracy,&#8221; then we should seriously reconsider why we support Saakashvili, not why Russia came to South Ossetia&#8217;s aid.</p>
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		<title>By: jbd</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2008/08/27/recognition/comment-page-1/#comment-378135</link>
		<dc:creator>jbd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 07:00:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2008/08/27/recognition/#comment-378135</guid>
		<description>Meh.  I think Saakashvili has proven himself a megalomaniac time and time again.  This isn&#039;t news.

However, he &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; the lawfully elected president of a country that America has declared an ally time and time again.

It&#039;s an extremely awkward situation all around.  Simple summaries (not that I think Josh offered one, mind, but they&#039;re all too easy to find) simply defy that essential reality.  But that&#039;s the reality of blogs, by in large: simple but opinionated.

The only reason I don&#039;t see Saakashvili getting tossed is that no other Georgian politician seems to be able to stand up with an actual way forward.  It&#039;s a whole world of nuancing about exactly &lt;i&gt;how much&lt;/i&gt; everyone hates Russia and wants very slightly different things for the economy.  Georgia as a whole is on the brink here; no leader is emerging to actually rise above the given situation.

Sigh.  Maybe I ought to start blogging again or something.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Meh.  I think Saakashvili has proven himself a megalomaniac time and time again.  This isn&#8217;t news.</p>
<p>However, he <i>is</i> the lawfully elected president of a country that America has declared an ally time and time again.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s an extremely awkward situation all around.  Simple summaries (not that I think Josh offered one, mind, but they&#8217;re all too easy to find) simply defy that essential reality.  But that&#8217;s the reality of blogs, by in large: simple but opinionated.</p>
<p>The only reason I don&#8217;t see Saakashvili getting tossed is that no other Georgian politician seems to be able to stand up with an actual way forward.  It&#8217;s a whole world of nuancing about exactly <i>how much</i> everyone hates Russia and wants very slightly different things for the economy.  Georgia as a whole is on the brink here; no leader is emerging to actually rise above the given situation.</p>
<p>Sigh.  Maybe I ought to start blogging again or something.</p>
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		<title>By: Kolya</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2008/08/27/recognition/comment-page-1/#comment-378134</link>
		<dc:creator>Kolya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 06:07:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2008/08/27/recognition/#comment-378134</guid>
		<description>fnord:

&quot;The use of strongly emotive language seems to be a common failure among our russian brothers. Words like “genocide” and “ethnic cleansing” wich were in themselves almost destroyed by the US use of them in Kosovo really ring hollow when the destruction is a few hundred people and much property.&quot;

Totally, 100 percent correct.

&quot;the russian point of view would look much better if you could explain who on earth allowed all the irregulars loose into georgian soil. It seems clear that the cossacks and the various bandit-militias were raiding deep into Georgia in retaliation well after the occupation was in force.&quot;

Just admit that it was wrong and unfortunate and that the perpetrators will be (or--more realistically--should have been) punished. Np excuses or rationalizations (&quot;Caucasus tradition of revenge,&quot; &quot;it could have been worse,&quot; &quot;the Georgians were/would have been worse&quot;) should be used.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>fnord:</p>
<p>&#8220;The use of strongly emotive language seems to be a common failure among our russian brothers. Words like “genocide” and “ethnic cleansing” wich were in themselves almost destroyed by the US use of them in Kosovo really ring hollow when the destruction is a few hundred people and much property.&#8221;</p>
<p>Totally, 100 percent correct.</p>
<p>&#8220;the russian point of view would look much better if you could explain who on earth allowed all the irregulars loose into georgian soil. It seems clear that the cossacks and the various bandit-militias were raiding deep into Georgia in retaliation well after the occupation was in force.&#8221;</p>
<p>Just admit that it was wrong and unfortunate and that the perpetrators will be (or&#8211;more realistically&#8211;should have been) punished. Np excuses or rationalizations (&#8220;Caucasus tradition of revenge,&#8221; &#8220;it could have been worse,&#8221; &#8220;the Georgians were/would have been worse&#8221;) should be used.</p>
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		<title>By: Oldschool Boy</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2008/08/27/recognition/comment-page-1/#comment-378133</link>
		<dc:creator>Oldschool Boy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 06:06:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2008/08/27/recognition/#comment-378133</guid>
		<description>You Guys are fool. Russians hate America and the rest of the Democtratic world, they would destroy you if they had power. 90% of russian population support what their leaders did in Geogia regardless who started the war and would like Russian Army to go as far as Tbilissi, Baku, Ukraine, Moldova or Poland.
But you silly liberals just keep picking your noses and trying to hide you fear by bullshitting around and pretending beeing &quot;objective&quot;. Same way Hitler was allowed to come to power. It is time you chose your side Gentlemen. The war has started.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You Guys are fool. Russians hate America and the rest of the Democtratic world, they would destroy you if they had power. 90% of russian population support what their leaders did in Geogia regardless who started the war and would like Russian Army to go as far as Tbilissi, Baku, Ukraine, Moldova or Poland.<br />
But you silly liberals just keep picking your noses and trying to hide you fear by bullshitting around and pretending beeing &#8220;objective&#8221;. Same way Hitler was allowed to come to power. It is time you chose your side Gentlemen. The war has started.</p>
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		<title>By: fnord</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2008/08/27/recognition/comment-page-1/#comment-378132</link>
		<dc:creator>fnord</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 05:35:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2008/08/27/recognition/#comment-378132</guid>
		<description>I think one of the most fascinating subjects of this war is how the info-war has been going after the conflict itself was truly over. It seems for once the neo-con spin machine has met its equal, and in a technical way its kinda cool to see a new cadre of russian info-warriors on the internet using parts info and parts spin-magic. For once, there has been a real fog-of-cyberwar, and that I think is a first in world history.

However, a couple of words of advice, Jail McCain and others: The use of strongly emotive language seems to be a common failure among our russian brothers. Words like &quot;genocide&quot; and &quot;ethnic cleansing&quot; wich were in themselves almost destroyed by the US use of them in Kosovo really ring hollow when the destruction is a few hundred people and much property. &quot;Clear targeting of distinctive ethnic groups&quot; or even better, just &quot;war crimes&quot; are sufficient. Ethnic cleansing is Rwanda, genocide is Pol Pot or the Burmese war on the Karen people to go into smaller scale. So to us cynical sceptics, who would also like to see McCain and his mighty friends in media exposed and discarded, such terms are kind of counterproductive. Its just a shitty little conflict with a couple of thousand dead, not WW3. Unless the neo-cons manage to spin it that way, of course.

Another point is that the russian point of view would look much better if you could explain who on earth allowed all the irregulars loose into georgian soil. It seems clear that the cossacks and the various bandit-militias were raiding deep into Georgia in retaliation well after the occupation was in force. A more professional approach to the act, militarily, would cost you a lot less emotive &amp; outraged rhetoric in the public western sphere.

As a friend of mine from Russia said: &quot;Georgians are bandits. Ossetians are bandits. Putin is the biggest bandit of them all. When small bandits try to fight the big bandits, things usually dont go too well for the small bandits unless they are lucky&quot;. I think that sums this conflict up quite well. It sure aint worth sacrificing Afghanistan for, at least.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think one of the most fascinating subjects of this war is how the info-war has been going after the conflict itself was truly over. It seems for once the neo-con spin machine has met its equal, and in a technical way its kinda cool to see a new cadre of russian info-warriors on the internet using parts info and parts spin-magic. For once, there has been a real fog-of-cyberwar, and that I think is a first in world history.</p>
<p>However, a couple of words of advice, Jail McCain and others: The use of strongly emotive language seems to be a common failure among our russian brothers. Words like &#8220;genocide&#8221; and &#8220;ethnic cleansing&#8221; wich were in themselves almost destroyed by the US use of them in Kosovo really ring hollow when the destruction is a few hundred people and much property. &#8220;Clear targeting of distinctive ethnic groups&#8221; or even better, just &#8220;war crimes&#8221; are sufficient. Ethnic cleansing is Rwanda, genocide is Pol Pot or the Burmese war on the Karen people to go into smaller scale. So to us cynical sceptics, who would also like to see McCain and his mighty friends in media exposed and discarded, such terms are kind of counterproductive. Its just a shitty little conflict with a couple of thousand dead, not WW3. Unless the neo-cons manage to spin it that way, of course.</p>
<p>Another point is that the russian point of view would look much better if you could explain who on earth allowed all the irregulars loose into georgian soil. It seems clear that the cossacks and the various bandit-militias were raiding deep into Georgia in retaliation well after the occupation was in force. A more professional approach to the act, militarily, would cost you a lot less emotive &amp; outraged rhetoric in the public western sphere.</p>
<p>As a friend of mine from Russia said: &#8220;Georgians are bandits. Ossetians are bandits. Putin is the biggest bandit of them all. When small bandits try to fight the big bandits, things usually dont go too well for the small bandits unless they are lucky&#8221;. I think that sums this conflict up quite well. It sure aint worth sacrificing Afghanistan for, at least.</p>
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		<title>By: Jail McCain</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2008/08/27/recognition/comment-page-1/#comment-378131</link>
		<dc:creator>Jail McCain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 04:51:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2008/08/27/recognition/#comment-378131</guid>
		<description>technote:

i checked to make sure the URL link didn&#039;t overflow prior to submission.  60 letters appears to be the limit.  

can you format for wrap?  maybe gif or image files have to be treated differently.

whatever.  sorry for the screw up.  

BTW:  the map posted in from the Georgia gov website. and in spite of the rhetoric, i support a regional settlement of the Caucasus Crisis, on the OSCE 1977 model (Helsinki Accord).  Peace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>technote:</p>
<p>i checked to make sure the URL link didn&#8217;t overflow prior to submission.  60 letters appears to be the limit.  </p>
<p>can you format for wrap?  maybe gif or image files have to be treated differently.</p>
<p>whatever.  sorry for the screw up.  </p>
<p>BTW:  the map posted in from the Georgia gov website. and in spite of the rhetoric, i support a regional settlement of the Caucasus Crisis, on the OSCE 1977 model (Helsinki Accord).  Peace.</p>
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		<title>By: Jail McCain</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2008/08/27/recognition/comment-page-1/#comment-378130</link>
		<dc:creator>Jail McCain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 04:41:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2008/08/27/recognition/#comment-378130</guid>
		<description>An objective - but incomplete - record of the blame narrative was issued by local experts:  
http://www.iwpr.net/?p=crs&amp;s=f&amp;o=346346&amp;apc_state=henh

However, there can be no denial that Saak had ordered artillery and rocket forces to set up on Georgian soil and to target residential neighborhoods for the purpose of ethnic cleansing.  Although the Russians are withholding data on US and Israeli technology captured, pending the GOP selection of McCain (they want to dead-duck him), captured Georgians have admitted that ethnic cleansing was their goal.  In spite of the Georgian cover story, the name of the operation has been disclosed as:  &quot;Clean Fields.&quot;  It was carried out with US advisors, who co-ordinated BlitzKleenz war preparations during &quot;Operation Immediate Response 2008&quot; that had finished in Georgia only a week earlier.  All but 137 of the 1000 US troops who participated were housed in the same barracks near Tblisi as the ethnic cleansers (Russians attacked same during the One-Day War). The rest completed their last flight out the day before the Midnight-Massacre.  &quot;Clean Fields&quot; succeeded in cleansing half of Tskhinvali&#039;s residents.  The end game of the operation was:  destruction of the Rokia Tunnel, imposing a fait accompli on the Russians.  And client Strong Men of US masters do NOT operate alone.  Bush ordered a war crime.

As an entire Russian army had been training in North Ossetia to match IR2008, one might have expected that they would have responded immediately.  In fact, independent observers found that Russian tanks did not arrive in Tskhinvali until 14.5 hours after the Midnight-Massacre.  Why didn&#039;t the Georgians attack Russians at the tunnel?  The deceitful coverstory is that they tried to destroy a nearby bridge but that plan failed.  Listen to the lies of Saakashit&#039;s Foreign Minister:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utkIeH3vbaQ&amp;feature=user

Did Saakashit order targeting of civilian neighborhoods with restraint?  At 7 PM he went on Georgian state TV to promise &quot;autonomy&quot; to Ossetians; 4.5 hours later that same TV station broadcast triumphal scenes of rockets flying and artillery shells being delivered.  Two days later, Russians conducted a media tour of the destruction.  I won&#039;t post pics of the numerous murders of civilians by Georgian cleansers and their US advisors.

In the so-called brutal occupation of parts of Georgia, Russian soldiers debate with Georgian protesters. What were the soldiers saying about Tskhinvali? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9m5hnDnRL0A&amp;feature=related

From the Georgian government website, see map of Russian checkpoints. ZERO occupied cities:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ppYoJaoaCUc/SKl4QDD8lTI/AAAAAAAAADM/BzQgVfAa7d8/s1600-h/map-russian-military-units.gif

It is Bush-McCain supporters who thought they could Pentagon Game their way into 4 more years.  Obama won&#039;t pardon them.  Hopefully those war criminals get life imprisonment.  

An Obama government would release satellite proof of Russian&#039;s claims.  McCain is well aware of that.  Vote Obama-Biden.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An objective &#8211; but incomplete &#8211; record of the blame narrative was issued by local experts:<br />
<a href="http://www.iwpr.net/?p=crs&#038;s=f&#038;o=346346&#038;apc_state=henh" rel="nofollow">http://www.iwpr.net/?p=crs&#038;s=f&#038;o=346346&#038;apc_state=henh</a></p>
<p>However, there can be no denial that Saak had ordered artillery and rocket forces to set up on Georgian soil and to target residential neighborhoods for the purpose of ethnic cleansing.  Although the Russians are withholding data on US and Israeli technology captured, pending the GOP selection of McCain (they want to dead-duck him), captured Georgians have admitted that ethnic cleansing was their goal.  In spite of the Georgian cover story, the name of the operation has been disclosed as:  &#8220;Clean Fields.&#8221;  It was carried out with US advisors, who co-ordinated BlitzKleenz war preparations during &#8220;Operation Immediate Response 2008&#8243; that had finished in Georgia only a week earlier.  All but 137 of the 1000 US troops who participated were housed in the same barracks near Tblisi as the ethnic cleansers (Russians attacked same during the One-Day War). The rest completed their last flight out the day before the Midnight-Massacre.  &#8220;Clean Fields&#8221; succeeded in cleansing half of Tskhinvali&#8217;s residents.  The end game of the operation was:  destruction of the Rokia Tunnel, imposing a fait accompli on the Russians.  And client Strong Men of US masters do NOT operate alone.  Bush ordered a war crime.</p>
<p>As an entire Russian army had been training in North Ossetia to match IR2008, one might have expected that they would have responded immediately.  In fact, independent observers found that Russian tanks did not arrive in Tskhinvali until 14.5 hours after the Midnight-Massacre.  Why didn&#8217;t the Georgians attack Russians at the tunnel?  The deceitful coverstory is that they tried to destroy a nearby bridge but that plan failed.  Listen to the lies of Saakashit&#8217;s Foreign Minister:<br />
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utkIeH3vbaQ&#038;feature=user" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utkIeH3vbaQ&#038;feature=user</a></p>
<p>Did Saakashit order targeting of civilian neighborhoods with restraint?  At 7 PM he went on Georgian state TV to promise &#8220;autonomy&#8221; to Ossetians; 4.5 hours later that same TV station broadcast triumphal scenes of rockets flying and artillery shells being delivered.  Two days later, Russians conducted a media tour of the destruction.  I won&#8217;t post pics of the numerous murders of civilians by Georgian cleansers and their US advisors.</p>
<p>In the so-called brutal occupation of parts of Georgia, Russian soldiers debate with Georgian protesters. What were the soldiers saying about Tskhinvali? </p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9m5hnDnRL0A&#038;feature=related" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9m5hnDnRL0A&#038;feature=related</a></p>
<p>From the Georgian government website, see map of Russian checkpoints. ZERO occupied cities:<br />
<a href="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ppYoJaoaCUc/SKl4QDD8lTI/AAAAAAAAADM/BzQgVfAa7d8/s1600-h/map-russian-military-units.gif" rel="nofollow">http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ppYoJaoaCUc/SKl4QDD8lTI/AAAAAAAAADM/BzQgVfAa7d8/s1600-h/map-russian-military-units.gif</a></p>
<p>It is Bush-McCain supporters who thought they could Pentagon Game their way into 4 more years.  Obama won&#8217;t pardon them.  Hopefully those war criminals get life imprisonment.  </p>
<p>An Obama government would release satellite proof of Russian&#8217;s claims.  McCain is well aware of that.  Vote Obama-Biden.</p>
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		<title>By: Kolya</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2008/08/27/recognition/comment-page-1/#comment-378129</link>
		<dc:creator>Kolya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 03:38:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2008/08/27/recognition/#comment-378129</guid>
		<description>&quot;It’s best to treat Totten’s work (and not just in Georgia) as a travelogue.&quot;

Yes, indeed. The travelogue of a gullible man who likes to project the image of being a macho independent reporter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;It’s best to treat Totten’s work (and not just in Georgia) as a travelogue.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes, indeed. The travelogue of a gullible man who likes to project the image of being a macho independent reporter.</p>
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		<title>By: R. Pointer</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2008/08/27/recognition/comment-page-1/#comment-378128</link>
		<dc:creator>R. Pointer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 03:22:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2008/08/27/recognition/#comment-378128</guid>
		<description>Travelogue is right.

The whole thing is a mess. And as so many of my fellow countrymen refuse to acknowledge, the U.S. added its own sh** to the pot.

I am further amazed that some call for the US to send in arms to Georgia. Have we forgotten that Russia too has nukes? This isn&#039;t Iraq boys.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Travelogue is right.</p>
<p>The whole thing is a mess. And as so many of my fellow countrymen refuse to acknowledge, the U.S. added its own sh** to the pot.</p>
<p>I am further amazed that some call for the US to send in arms to Georgia. Have we forgotten that Russia too has nukes? This isn&#8217;t Iraq boys.</p>
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		<title>By: Nathan</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2008/08/27/recognition/comment-page-1/#comment-378127</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 03:12:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2008/08/27/recognition/#comment-378127</guid>
		<description>Jeffrey, the description is fairly close to that given by a number of western diplomats off the record. Sure, one could offer more nuance -- if one were writing a biography, it would be necessary. However, none of that description is wrong per se.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeffrey, the description is fairly close to that given by a number of western diplomats off the record. Sure, one could offer more nuance &#8212; if one were writing a biography, it would be necessary. However, none of that description is wrong per se.</p>
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