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	<title>Comments on: What Kind of Government?</title>
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	<description>All Central Asia, All The Time</description>
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		<title>By: kao_hsien_chih</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2008/09/20/what-kind-of-government/comment-page-1/#comment-378488</link>
		<dc:creator>kao_hsien_chih</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2008 11:30:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Beefing up UN on a massive scale would be doable only if money grows on trees.  

If anybody puts up the money, they would figure that they own at least a part of the enterprise--and they are probably right, since, without their money, the enterprise is toast anyways.  They will try to twist the distribution of aid around, to advance their agenda.  Or, in other words, you get stuck further and further into the morass.  The fundamental paradox, in other words, seems to be that even if &quot;letting go,&quot; at least of the attempt to control the nitty gritty of the operation, is the only way to wrap up the mess, nobody really wants to give up having some control over the outcome.  Or, in other words, I don&#039;t see a good way out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Beefing up UN on a massive scale would be doable only if money grows on trees.  </p>
<p>If anybody puts up the money, they would figure that they own at least a part of the enterprise&#8211;and they are probably right, since, without their money, the enterprise is toast anyways.  They will try to twist the distribution of aid around, to advance their agenda.  Or, in other words, you get stuck further and further into the morass.  The fundamental paradox, in other words, seems to be that even if &#8220;letting go,&#8221; at least of the attempt to control the nitty gritty of the operation, is the only way to wrap up the mess, nobody really wants to give up having some control over the outcome.  Or, in other words, I don&#8217;t see a good way out.</p>
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		<title>By: fnord</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2008/09/20/what-kind-of-government/comment-page-1/#comment-378487</link>
		<dc:creator>fnord</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2008 09:33:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2008/09/20/what-kind-of-government/#comment-378487</guid>
		<description>Fascinating. One of the things that confuse me about the whole &quot;COIN paradigm&quot; as presented by Nagl etc. is that while on the one hand it is presented as thinking outside the box, they still keep on firmly thinking inside the box. The box being in this instance US military as the only tool available. If we accept the fact that what is needed for Afghanistan is a distant and benevolent state, then obviously one of the first parameters that must be looked on is that of the state of War. But, since the US is in a fighting war with the taliban, this perimeter will not change unless the US somehow manages to shift the job of rebuilding behind the frontlines to some other force, *wich is what the UN was made for*. 

My two cents: Beefing up the UN on a truly massive, NASAeffort-like scale would be able to distribute serious and &quot;neutral&quot; aid, especially if done by non-western folks. Hire in 600 000 chinese contract workers, and supply them with Pakistani Pashtun interpreters, declare a offensive ceasefire and send out the word to all Afghans that now some serious benefits are coming their way. Follow this up with real money. It is the only way out of this mess I can see.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fascinating. One of the things that confuse me about the whole &#8220;COIN paradigm&#8221; as presented by Nagl etc. is that while on the one hand it is presented as thinking outside the box, they still keep on firmly thinking inside the box. The box being in this instance US military as the only tool available. If we accept the fact that what is needed for Afghanistan is a distant and benevolent state, then obviously one of the first parameters that must be looked on is that of the state of War. But, since the US is in a fighting war with the taliban, this perimeter will not change unless the US somehow manages to shift the job of rebuilding behind the frontlines to some other force, *wich is what the UN was made for*. </p>
<p>My two cents: Beefing up the UN on a truly massive, NASAeffort-like scale would be able to distribute serious and &#8220;neutral&#8221; aid, especially if done by non-western folks. Hire in 600 000 chinese contract workers, and supply them with Pakistani Pashtun interpreters, declare a offensive ceasefire and send out the word to all Afghans that now some serious benefits are coming their way. Follow this up with real money. It is the only way out of this mess I can see.</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua Foust</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2008/09/20/what-kind-of-government/comment-page-1/#comment-378482</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua Foust</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2008 04:22:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2008/09/20/what-kind-of-government/#comment-378482</guid>
		<description>Three trolling comments here have been deleted. If readers would like to contact any authors of this blog, we have provided a contact form in the menu above. Of a similar note: do not &lt;i&gt;ever&lt;/i&gt; go after any of our employers or the terms of our employment. Ever.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Three trolling comments here have been deleted. If readers would like to contact any authors of this blog, we have provided a contact form in the menu above. Of a similar note: do not <i>ever</i> go after any of our employers or the terms of our employment. Ever.</p>
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		<title>By: Prithvi</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2008/09/20/what-kind-of-government/comment-page-1/#comment-378477</link>
		<dc:creator>Prithvi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2008 17:26:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2008/09/20/what-kind-of-government/#comment-378477</guid>
		<description>My apologies for derailing the topic:

Nagasaki and Hiroshima did not occur out of a vacuum.  The atomic attacks were used against a foe that in the course of a total war, itself used biological and chemical warfare, killed 20 million people, and was actually planning a radiological attack against the West Coast of the US.  One can dispute the morality of atomic weapons, but they were, in a sense, part of the logic of the times.

Obviously in Afghanistan, the situation is utterly different.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My apologies for derailing the topic:</p>
<p>Nagasaki and Hiroshima did not occur out of a vacuum.  The atomic attacks were used against a foe that in the course of a total war, itself used biological and chemical warfare, killed 20 million people, and was actually planning a radiological attack against the West Coast of the US.  One can dispute the morality of atomic weapons, but they were, in a sense, part of the logic of the times.</p>
<p>Obviously in Afghanistan, the situation is utterly different.</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua Foust</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2008/09/20/what-kind-of-government/comment-page-1/#comment-378472</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua Foust</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Sep 2008 15:37:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2008/09/20/what-kind-of-government/#comment-378472</guid>
		<description>Wow, I&#039;m glad Johnson is here to tell me that each district in Afghanistan has a single clan or tribe. Ugh. Good catch.

And I&#039;m beat why he keeps getting published. Though I&#039;ll also note it is interesting he never gets published in Afghan-centric publications.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, I&#8217;m glad Johnson is here to tell me that each district in Afghanistan has a single clan or tribe. Ugh. Good catch.</p>
<p>And I&#8217;m beat why he keeps getting published. Though I&#8217;ll also note it is interesting he never gets published in Afghan-centric publications.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2008/09/20/what-kind-of-government/comment-page-1/#comment-378467</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Sep 2008 01:19:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2008/09/20/what-kind-of-government/#comment-378467</guid>
		<description>Roy&#039;s characterization is elegant, concise and dead-on accurate. However it and similar descriptions of Afghanistan&#039;s center-periphery relations have absolutely no traction with U.S. and Coalition practitioners and planners. 

Tom Johnson and Chris Mason&#039;s latest piece in the October 2008 Atlantic, titled &quot;All Counterinsurgency Is Local,&quot; sets a new standard for ignorance and insipid analysis. That their dreck continues to be taken as serious and informed by the intelligentsia and the Coalition suggests how little has been learned in the last eight years about Afghanistan.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Roy&#8217;s characterization is elegant, concise and dead-on accurate. However it and similar descriptions of Afghanistan&#8217;s center-periphery relations have absolutely no traction with U.S. and Coalition practitioners and planners. </p>
<p>Tom Johnson and Chris Mason&#8217;s latest piece in the October 2008 Atlantic, titled &#8220;All Counterinsurgency Is Local,&#8221; sets a new standard for ignorance and insipid analysis. That their dreck continues to be taken as serious and informed by the intelligentsia and the Coalition suggests how little has been learned in the last eight years about Afghanistan.</p>
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		<title>By: kao_hsien_chih</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2008/09/20/what-kind-of-government/comment-page-1/#comment-378464</link>
		<dc:creator>kao_hsien_chih</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Sep 2008 21:13:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2008/09/20/what-kind-of-government/#comment-378464</guid>
		<description>The Roman model, if I understood it correctly, was predicated on doing all your evil deeds on one day so that the conquered natives would be scared shitless for a long time thereafter.  So, the death toll for a few days would be very high...but not so over the long term.

I think US policy is the opposite.  We do our evil deeds, in a manner of speaking, at least in Iraq and Afghanistan, in small doses, largely due to neglect, indifference, and personal prejudices of the people on the ground rather than systematic policy by the top leadership.  Death toll is comparatively small, day by day, but over time it builds up--to the point perhaps well beyond the Romans.  Regardless of the problems with the Lancet study (and people just seemed to have trouble understanding the notion of &quot;access deaths&quot; rather than people actually being shot or blow up), there is no question that lots of people have been dying.  Just that they weren&#039;t being killed in large &quot;batches,&quot; so to speak.  
That, actually, might be a problem from the &quot;Roman&quot; perspective:  1,000 people being massacred in a single day may shock and dismay the home folks.  It will also shock and intimidate potential local enemies for 1,000 days.  Killing 20 people a day or 1000 days will not shock, dismay, or intimidate anyone, despite 20 times the death toll--although it will gain plenty of hatred for the conquerors.  Unfortunately for the conqueror, it doesn&#039;t shock the opponents into quiescence either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Roman model, if I understood it correctly, was predicated on doing all your evil deeds on one day so that the conquered natives would be scared shitless for a long time thereafter.  So, the death toll for a few days would be very high&#8230;but not so over the long term.</p>
<p>I think US policy is the opposite.  We do our evil deeds, in a manner of speaking, at least in Iraq and Afghanistan, in small doses, largely due to neglect, indifference, and personal prejudices of the people on the ground rather than systematic policy by the top leadership.  Death toll is comparatively small, day by day, but over time it builds up&#8211;to the point perhaps well beyond the Romans.  Regardless of the problems with the Lancet study (and people just seemed to have trouble understanding the notion of &#8220;access deaths&#8221; rather than people actually being shot or blow up), there is no question that lots of people have been dying.  Just that they weren&#8217;t being killed in large &#8220;batches,&#8221; so to speak.<br />
That, actually, might be a problem from the &#8220;Roman&#8221; perspective:  1,000 people being massacred in a single day may shock and dismay the home folks.  It will also shock and intimidate potential local enemies for 1,000 days.  Killing 20 people a day or 1000 days will not shock, dismay, or intimidate anyone, despite 20 times the death toll&#8211;although it will gain plenty of hatred for the conquerors.  Unfortunately for the conqueror, it doesn&#8217;t shock the opponents into quiescence either.</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua Foust</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2008/09/20/what-kind-of-government/comment-page-1/#comment-378463</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua Foust</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Sep 2008 19:40:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>For starters, I really doubt we&#039;d replicate anything on the scale of Dresden of Hiroshima today. Similarly, rounding up all the elders of a village and summarily executing them, abducting their women, and conscripting their young men into the Army wouldn&#039;t really cut it either. Sure we kill people here and there in mis-timed air strikes, but are you really arguing that tactically we&#039;re little better than the Romans?

I hope not.

It&#039;s also worth noting that the Lancet Study had numerous methodological and analytical problems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For starters, I really doubt we&#8217;d replicate anything on the scale of Dresden of Hiroshima today. Similarly, rounding up all the elders of a village and summarily executing them, abducting their women, and conscripting their young men into the Army wouldn&#8217;t really cut it either. Sure we kill people here and there in mis-timed air strikes, but are you really arguing that tactically we&#8217;re little better than the Romans?</p>
<p>I hope not.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s also worth noting that the Lancet Study had numerous methodological and analytical problems.</p>
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		<title>By: b</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2008/09/20/what-kind-of-government/comment-page-1/#comment-378462</link>
		<dc:creator>b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Sep 2008 19:37:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2008/09/20/what-kind-of-government/#comment-378462</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;the inappropriateness of replicating the Imperial Roman experience (they were incredibly violent in a way we simply will not be),&lt;/i&gt;

Joshua, you are really amusing.

Google &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.google.de/search?hl=en&amp;q=lancet+study+iraq&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;lancet study Iraq&lt;/a&gt;

What, in your mind did the Romans do, that wasn&#039;t challenged at Hiroshima and Nagasaki as well as many other places later on?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>the inappropriateness of replicating the Imperial Roman experience (they were incredibly violent in a way we simply will not be),</i></p>
<p>Joshua, you are really amusing.</p>
<p>Google <a href="http://www.google.de/search?hl=en&amp;q=lancet+study+iraq" rel="nofollow">lancet study Iraq</a></p>
<p>What, in your mind did the Romans do, that wasn&#8217;t challenged at Hiroshima and Nagasaki as well as many other places later on?</p>
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