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	<title>Comments on: Ground View of What Security Means</title>
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		<title>By: Eli</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2008/11/24/ground-view-of-what-security-means/comment-page-1/#comment-379100</link>
		<dc:creator>Eli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 10:06:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2008/11/24/ground-view-of-what-security-means/#comment-379100</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve collaborated with ETTs quite a bit the last few months, and have been generally impressed by their insight and ability to work with Afghans. Their role is frequently misunderstood. They are trainers and advisors who support ANA units, which make their own plans and decisions about missions. The ETTs can make suggestions to the ANA officers making plans, they can make suggestions on tactics during missions, and they can refuse to accompany missions they disagree with; and that is about the extent of their authority. V06 is not very clear in his blog entry, but unless it was an unusual circumstance, it was not his team&#039;s mission to the clinic but rather an ANA mission to the clinic that he and a handful of other ETTs accompanied. The role is hard to understand by some in the military, who don&#039;t always understand subordinating oneself to somebody not in the chain of command, and by some outside the military, who have a hard time with the concept of a relationship between Americans and Afghans as anything less than colonial.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve collaborated with ETTs quite a bit the last few months, and have been generally impressed by their insight and ability to work with Afghans. Their role is frequently misunderstood. They are trainers and advisors who support ANA units, which make their own plans and decisions about missions. The ETTs can make suggestions to the ANA officers making plans, they can make suggestions on tactics during missions, and they can refuse to accompany missions they disagree with; and that is about the extent of their authority. V06 is not very clear in his blog entry, but unless it was an unusual circumstance, it was not his team&#8217;s mission to the clinic but rather an ANA mission to the clinic that he and a handful of other ETTs accompanied. The role is hard to understand by some in the military, who don&#8217;t always understand subordinating oneself to somebody not in the chain of command, and by some outside the military, who have a hard time with the concept of a relationship between Americans and Afghans as anything less than colonial.</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua Foust</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2008/11/24/ground-view-of-what-security-means/comment-page-1/#comment-379097</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua Foust</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2008 17:56:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2008/11/24/ground-view-of-what-security-means/#comment-379097</guid>
		<description>&quot;However, we do not know what questions V06 asked the doc.&quot;

Exactly. Which is I think why I and Eric raised issues with the assumptions you placed on this interaction. You can&#039;t simultaneously assume good and bad faith to someone when discussing their motives. (Well, maybe you COULD, but that isn&#039;t very good faith either.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;However, we do not know what questions V06 asked the doc.&#8221;</p>
<p>Exactly. Which is I think why I and Eric raised issues with the assumptions you placed on this interaction. You can&#8217;t simultaneously assume good and bad faith to someone when discussing their motives. (Well, maybe you COULD, but that isn&#8217;t very good faith either.)</p>
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		<title>By: Helena Cobban</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2008/11/24/ground-view-of-what-security-means/comment-page-1/#comment-379096</link>
		<dc:creator>Helena Cobban</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2008 17:45:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2008/11/24/ground-view-of-what-security-means/#comment-379096</guid>
		<description>Eric, I do think mutual respect-- at all levels of the US-Afghan interaction-- would be a sufficient condition for real progress, and I think that V06 showed some capacity for that in his actions (as described by himself.) But I do NOT see it happening at the broader level of the relationship, where for example Karzai repeatedly requests the US-led forces to desist from their extremely damaging air bombardments, to tragically little avail.

The air actions get ordered in &#039;because&#039; (in some some strictly limited, technical-military sense) there are not nearly enough (sensitive, courageous, etc) ground forces boots on the ground. So Washington proposes sending in 30,000 more (pairs of) boots. Will this be enough, at this stage, to stem the rising tide of anti-westernism in Afghanistan? I doubt it.

Also, though I do think V06 betrays some keen tactical awareness and realism, I don&#039;t see him, from reading through his posts since he&#039;s been in theater, as having very much cultural self-awareness and sensitivity. I don&#039;t doubt his courage for a moment.

Finally, I don&#039;t think that busting into a doctor&#039;s clinic fully armed and asking questions could be described as wholly non-coercive.

On the precise question re standard doc-patient confidentiality issues that you raise, you might be right. However, we do not know what questions V06 asked the doc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric, I do think mutual respect&#8211; at all levels of the US-Afghan interaction&#8211; would be a sufficient condition for real progress, and I think that V06 showed some capacity for that in his actions (as described by himself.) But I do NOT see it happening at the broader level of the relationship, where for example Karzai repeatedly requests the US-led forces to desist from their extremely damaging air bombardments, to tragically little avail.</p>
<p>The air actions get ordered in &#8216;because&#8217; (in some some strictly limited, technical-military sense) there are not nearly enough (sensitive, courageous, etc) ground forces boots on the ground. So Washington proposes sending in 30,000 more (pairs of) boots. Will this be enough, at this stage, to stem the rising tide of anti-westernism in Afghanistan? I doubt it.</p>
<p>Also, though I do think V06 betrays some keen tactical awareness and realism, I don&#8217;t see him, from reading through his posts since he&#8217;s been in theater, as having very much cultural self-awareness and sensitivity. I don&#8217;t doubt his courage for a moment.</p>
<p>Finally, I don&#8217;t think that busting into a doctor&#8217;s clinic fully armed and asking questions could be described as wholly non-coercive.</p>
<p>On the precise question re standard doc-patient confidentiality issues that you raise, you might be right. However, we do not know what questions V06 asked the doc.</p>
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		<title>By: fnord</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2008/11/24/ground-view-of-what-security-means/comment-page-1/#comment-379088</link>
		<dc:creator>fnord</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 22:28:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2008/11/24/ground-view-of-what-security-means/#comment-379088</guid>
		<description>A tangent on this: Does anyone know to what extent the west are providing proper healthcare? Are there any proper fieldhospitals in effect catering exclusively to Afghans incountry? How many? It was one of the issues that amazed me, and continues to amaze me, in Iraq: How much hearts and minds could have been won by simple grips, like going into the refugee camps and securing their watersituation, healthcare etc. What are we doing on this issue in Afghanistan?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A tangent on this: Does anyone know to what extent the west are providing proper healthcare? Are there any proper fieldhospitals in effect catering exclusively to Afghans incountry? How many? It was one of the issues that amazed me, and continues to amaze me, in Iraq: How much hearts and minds could have been won by simple grips, like going into the refugee camps and securing their watersituation, healthcare etc. What are we doing on this issue in Afghanistan?</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2008/11/24/ground-view-of-what-security-means/comment-page-1/#comment-379087</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 22:24:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2008/11/24/ground-view-of-what-security-means/#comment-379087</guid>
		<description>Helena, 
I think we have a definitional problem and I would be interested in exploring it. 
For me, establishing security, and the basics of an economy, while maintaining mutual respect between NATO/US forces, the ANA, and Afghans constitutes not only hearts and minds, but a viable path to &quot;victory&quot;. 
I see mutual respect as completely adequate for &quot;Hearts and minds&quot; because I don&#039;t see Bush-in-Albania style love as necessary or possible. If you see mutual respect as insufficient, what do you see as necessary?

And does anyone who has spent time with the COIN manual  know how it would define &quot;hearts and minds&quot; (although I suspect it doesn&#039;t use that term)?

Slightly related, I think an ANA or any NATO unit could do quite well with a consistent  policy of respectful, non-coercive, not-making-people-say-so-much-they-lose-their-heads interrogation. That could actually be a basis for developing some trust in police structures if it provided security.

Lastly, and least related, were you suggesting that asking the doctor if there had been insurgents at the hospital violated medical confidentiality or entering with guns? I don&#039;t believe US police asking a US doctor whether they had seen a patient would present any sort of confidentiality dilemma unless they also wanted to know the patients blood type...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Helena,<br />
I think we have a definitional problem and I would be interested in exploring it.<br />
For me, establishing security, and the basics of an economy, while maintaining mutual respect between NATO/US forces, the ANA, and Afghans constitutes not only hearts and minds, but a viable path to &#8220;victory&#8221;.<br />
I see mutual respect as completely adequate for &#8220;Hearts and minds&#8221; because I don&#8217;t see Bush-in-Albania style love as necessary or possible. If you see mutual respect as insufficient, what do you see as necessary?</p>
<p>And does anyone who has spent time with the COIN manual  know how it would define &#8220;hearts and minds&#8221; (although I suspect it doesn&#8217;t use that term)?</p>
<p>Slightly related, I think an ANA or any NATO unit could do quite well with a consistent  policy of respectful, non-coercive, not-making-people-say-so-much-they-lose-their-heads interrogation. That could actually be a basis for developing some trust in police structures if it provided security.</p>
<p>Lastly, and least related, were you suggesting that asking the doctor if there had been insurgents at the hospital violated medical confidentiality or entering with guns? I don&#8217;t believe US police asking a US doctor whether they had seen a patient would present any sort of confidentiality dilemma unless they also wanted to know the patients blood type&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Helena Cobban</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2008/11/24/ground-view-of-what-security-means/comment-page-1/#comment-379086</link>
		<dc:creator>Helena Cobban</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 21:21:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2008/11/24/ground-view-of-what-security-means/#comment-379086</guid>
		<description>He&#039;s not just an &quot;embedded soldier&quot;. He&#039;s an officer in an &quot;embedded training team.&quot; That is, a leader in a training capacity. So he&#039;s teaching the ANA that taking an armed team to undertake an intrusive interrogation of a doc is quite okay?

This was not hot pursuit. He and his team launched the whole mission with the aim of looking for one or more wounded fighters in the medical facility where he guessed they might have gone-- and with doing what if he&#039;d found them there? 

I repeat, though, that that blog post illustrated very vividly the impossibility of the western military project in Afghanistan-- as V06 had some awareness of, himself. 

Can anyone think he won &quot;hearts and minds&quot; through that little outing?If he won anything, it may have been a small measure of respect from the doc and his friends for the (relative) restraint he showed in not hauling doc in for even more interrogation (or worse.) It was a standoff marked by some possible mutual respect between the two of them. Sort of live and let live. 

Which is good as far as it goes. But not good for anyone who still has the illusion, seven years in, that there&#039;s any purely western-determined, purely &quot;military&quot; solution to the question of Afghanistan.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He&#8217;s not just an &#8220;embedded soldier&#8221;. He&#8217;s an officer in an &#8220;embedded training team.&#8221; That is, a leader in a training capacity. So he&#8217;s teaching the ANA that taking an armed team to undertake an intrusive interrogation of a doc is quite okay?</p>
<p>This was not hot pursuit. He and his team launched the whole mission with the aim of looking for one or more wounded fighters in the medical facility where he guessed they might have gone&#8211; and with doing what if he&#8217;d found them there? </p>
<p>I repeat, though, that that blog post illustrated very vividly the impossibility of the western military project in Afghanistan&#8211; as V06 had some awareness of, himself. </p>
<p>Can anyone think he won &#8220;hearts and minds&#8221; through that little outing?If he won anything, it may have been a small measure of respect from the doc and his friends for the (relative) restraint he showed in not hauling doc in for even more interrogation (or worse.) It was a standoff marked by some possible mutual respect between the two of them. Sort of live and let live. </p>
<p>Which is good as far as it goes. But not good for anyone who still has the illusion, seven years in, that there&#8217;s any purely western-determined, purely &#8220;military&#8221; solution to the question of Afghanistan.</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua Foust</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2008/11/24/ground-view-of-what-security-means/comment-page-1/#comment-379085</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua Foust</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 21:01:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2008/11/24/ground-view-of-what-security-means/#comment-379085</guid>
		<description>Helena, 

The Geneva Conventions do not &quot;protect&quot; medical clinics from a visit by a patrolling soldier. Especially since they were responding to reports of insurgent activity -- if appearances were correct and insurgents were hiding within the clinic (as implied by the many large-caliber bullet holes in the gate), then the clinic does not enjoy protection as a neutral structure.

I&#039;m sorry your sensibilities were not soothed by an embedded soldier making small mentions of the Geneva Conventions or a western idea of medical privacy. But the real world -- especially in Afghanistan -- simply does not work that way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Helena, </p>
<p>The Geneva Conventions do not &#8220;protect&#8221; medical clinics from a visit by a patrolling soldier. Especially since they were responding to reports of insurgent activity &#8212; if appearances were correct and insurgents were hiding within the clinic (as implied by the many large-caliber bullet holes in the gate), then the clinic does not enjoy protection as a neutral structure.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sorry your sensibilities were not soothed by an embedded soldier making small mentions of the Geneva Conventions or a western idea of medical privacy. But the real world &#8212; especially in Afghanistan &#8212; simply does not work that way.</p>
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		<title>By: Helena Cobban</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2008/11/24/ground-view-of-what-security-means/comment-page-1/#comment-379084</link>
		<dc:creator>Helena Cobban</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 19:21:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2008/11/24/ground-view-of-what-security-means/#comment-379084</guid>
		<description>Joshua, the Geneva Conventions are supremely pragmatist in that they protect the fighting personnel of all sides (as well as the wellbeing of civilian residents of areas in which military are operating.) I do appreciate that V06 made an important tactical observation about the horrendous quandary the doc was in. But I would have found his stance more admirable if he&#039;d made even some small mention of the Geneva Conventions or even just the normal rules of patient-doctor confidentiality. Instead of which, he simply assumes it&#039;s okay to go in with an armed team and ask the doc intrusive questions??

On colonial or not colonial, this judgment is one to be made overwhelmingly by the Afghans themselves. It&#039;s a version of the question &quot;liberator or occupier?&quot; that the Iraqis have been dealing with amongst themselves for 5.5 years now. Opinions shift. Afghan opinion seems to have been shifting significantly against the US presence over the past 18 months.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joshua, the Geneva Conventions are supremely pragmatist in that they protect the fighting personnel of all sides (as well as the wellbeing of civilian residents of areas in which military are operating.) I do appreciate that V06 made an important tactical observation about the horrendous quandary the doc was in. But I would have found his stance more admirable if he&#8217;d made even some small mention of the Geneva Conventions or even just the normal rules of patient-doctor confidentiality. Instead of which, he simply assumes it&#8217;s okay to go in with an armed team and ask the doc intrusive questions??</p>
<p>On colonial or not colonial, this judgment is one to be made overwhelmingly by the Afghans themselves. It&#8217;s a version of the question &#8220;liberator or occupier?&#8221; that the Iraqis have been dealing with amongst themselves for 5.5 years now. Opinions shift. Afghan opinion seems to have been shifting significantly against the US presence over the past 18 months.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2008/11/24/ground-view-of-what-security-means/comment-page-1/#comment-379083</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:03:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2008/11/24/ground-view-of-what-security-means/#comment-379083</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the link Joshua, very good reading.

I would also like to disagree with Helena. 
In reading Afghanistan Shrugged, as well as Excellent Afghan Adventure, I am relieved by the nuanced cultural understanding and open mindedness the authors display while risking their lives. It is important that our perception of the US military, too often framed exclusively by civilian air strike casualties and stories of abuse, expand to encompass the experiences of Vampire06 as well.

I for one did not detect the racism that Helena seems to have felt so acutely. Nor did I notice anything that implicated the Geneva convention in any way. 
While I do not doubt that there is no lack of racism or IHL violations in Afghanistan, Vampier06&#039;s hike to the clinic is evidence of neither.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the link Joshua, very good reading.</p>
<p>I would also like to disagree with Helena.<br />
In reading Afghanistan Shrugged, as well as Excellent Afghan Adventure, I am relieved by the nuanced cultural understanding and open mindedness the authors display while risking their lives. It is important that our perception of the US military, too often framed exclusively by civilian air strike casualties and stories of abuse, expand to encompass the experiences of Vampire06 as well.</p>
<p>I for one did not detect the racism that Helena seems to have felt so acutely. Nor did I notice anything that implicated the Geneva convention in any way.<br />
While I do not doubt that there is no lack of racism or IHL violations in Afghanistan, Vampier06&#8242;s hike to the clinic is evidence of neither.</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua Foust</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2008/11/24/ground-view-of-what-security-means/comment-page-1/#comment-379081</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua Foust</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 13:51:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2008/11/24/ground-view-of-what-security-means/#comment-379081</guid>
		<description>Helena,

I appreciate what you&#039;re saying, but what he described was quite literally a sewer. He said they have to spend long periods of time subsumed in trash, digging through effluvia and hoping they don&#039;t get sick from it. The man is a soldier, not a professional social scientist or journalist; expecting elevated and perfectly neutral language from him might be misplaced.

As for the &quot;saying,&quot; that has its origins at least in the 19th century -- from Afghans. Josiah Harlan, for example, recounted hearing that from &quot;Pathans&quot; he had met in Peshawar, and that view informed his strong opposition to the first Anglo-Afghan War (along with his own frustrating at being stripped of his crown of Ghor).

It might be offensive, but it isn&#039;t &quot;colonial&quot; in the sense that it was invented to demean Afghans. Neither can the U.S. occupation really be called colonial.

Also, idealism about what is permissable or not is great, but... that doctor is in constant danger -- not from this soldier, but from the Taliban. He was at risk before the soldier came, and he will be at risk after he leaves. Blaming the soldier for violating the Geneva Conventions misses the point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Helena,</p>
<p>I appreciate what you&#8217;re saying, but what he described was quite literally a sewer. He said they have to spend long periods of time subsumed in trash, digging through effluvia and hoping they don&#8217;t get sick from it. The man is a soldier, not a professional social scientist or journalist; expecting elevated and perfectly neutral language from him might be misplaced.</p>
<p>As for the &#8220;saying,&#8221; that has its origins at least in the 19th century &#8212; from Afghans. Josiah Harlan, for example, recounted hearing that from &#8220;Pathans&#8221; he had met in Peshawar, and that view informed his strong opposition to the first Anglo-Afghan War (along with his own frustrating at being stripped of his crown of Ghor).</p>
<p>It might be offensive, but it isn&#8217;t &#8220;colonial&#8221; in the sense that it was invented to demean Afghans. Neither can the U.S. occupation really be called colonial.</p>
<p>Also, idealism about what is permissable or not is great, but&#8230; that doctor is in constant danger &#8212; not from this soldier, but from the Taliban. He was at risk before the soldier came, and he will be at risk after he leaves. Blaming the soldier for violating the Geneva Conventions misses the point.</p>
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