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	<title>Comments on: Clash in Xinjiang &#8211; July 5 2009</title>
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	<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2009/07/06/clash-in-xinjiang-july-5-2009/</link>
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		<title>By: Former Tester</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2009/07/06/clash-in-xinjiang-july-5-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-380754</link>
		<dc:creator>Former Tester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 12:02:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Very intense discussions here.Personally,I don&#039;t think they could be called protestors who slaughter people.In first comment ,Mr. &quot;u r shit&quot; says  some girls were raped,maybe that is the cause of this riot(we are still unaware of the truth in Guangdong Province).Maybe they are just taken advantage of.whatever,It was a national tragedy,and what these young people have done was inexcusable.Regardless of whether 
he is Uighur or Han,killing is a not right way to show their discontent.Government should also  take the responsibility of this riot.I wonder why police did not get any information,after all,it&#039;s a pig plan with 3000 people.I see some pics on the web,and I have called some colleagues in Urumqi(some also Uighur,and i&#039;m so happy they are all fine),it all shows that the destruction and the bodies of the victims are so appalling that one could hardly bear the sight of it.They are just innocent people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very intense discussions here.Personally,I don&#8217;t think they could be called protestors who slaughter people.In first comment ,Mr. &#8220;u r shit&#8221; says  some girls were raped,maybe that is the cause of this riot(we are still unaware of the truth in Guangdong Province).Maybe they are just taken advantage of.whatever,It was a national tragedy,and what these young people have done was inexcusable.Regardless of whether<br />
he is Uighur or Han,killing is a not right way to show their discontent.Government should also  take the responsibility of this riot.I wonder why police did not get any information,after all,it&#8217;s a pig plan with 3000 people.I see some pics on the web,and I have called some colleagues in Urumqi(some also Uighur,and i&#8217;m so happy they are all fine),it all shows that the destruction and the bodies of the victims are so appalling that one could hardly bear the sight of it.They are just innocent people.</p>
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		<title>By: Former Tester</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2009/07/06/clash-in-xinjiang-july-5-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-380753</link>
		<dc:creator>Former Tester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 11:46:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Seems I can post.Not so many Chinese readers here maybe because your advertising promotion is not enough :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seems I can post.Not so many Chinese readers here maybe because your advertising promotion is not enough <img src='http://registan.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: test</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2009/07/06/clash-in-xinjiang-july-5-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-380752</link>
		<dc:creator>test</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 10:00:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2009/07/06/clash-in-xinjiang-july-5-2009/#comment-380752</guid>
		<description>test</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>test</p>
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		<title>By: J B</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2009/07/06/clash-in-xinjiang-july-5-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-380751</link>
		<dc:creator>J B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 03:07:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2009/07/06/clash-in-xinjiang-july-5-2009/#comment-380751</guid>
		<description>Re: Joshua&#039;s point about increased foreign access, my guess is that they feel there is more evidence of rioting than there is evidence of the repression of protests, which i think makes sense- the only evidence of repressed protests would be Uighurs killed and/or beaten, whereas evidence of rioting would be damaged buildings, etc, which anyway take more time to clear up.  The Chinese govt&#039;s main goal here as in Tibet is to make the protesters/ rioters look bad and therefore delegitimize them, and so far they have succeeded, I would say.
Also, it is my impression that as in Tibet, they are running media tours, so the foreign media only sees what the CCP wants them to see.
I also agree though that it is impossible to draw conclusions about this, since we really only know about the CCP and exile version of events; we have no way of gauging what Uighurs in Xinjiang actually feel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: Joshua&#8217;s point about increased foreign access, my guess is that they feel there is more evidence of rioting than there is evidence of the repression of protests, which i think makes sense- the only evidence of repressed protests would be Uighurs killed and/or beaten, whereas evidence of rioting would be damaged buildings, etc, which anyway take more time to clear up.  The Chinese govt&#8217;s main goal here as in Tibet is to make the protesters/ rioters look bad and therefore delegitimize them, and so far they have succeeded, I would say.<br />
Also, it is my impression that as in Tibet, they are running media tours, so the foreign media only sees what the CCP wants them to see.<br />
I also agree though that it is impossible to draw conclusions about this, since we really only know about the CCP and exile version of events; we have no way of gauging what Uighurs in Xinjiang actually feel.</p>
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		<title>By: Turgai Sangar</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2009/07/06/clash-in-xinjiang-july-5-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-380745</link>
		<dc:creator>Turgai Sangar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 13:31:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Phew, who started the insult contest? 

Anyway: how can this evolve further? What is relatively new, though not surprising in se, is that it happens in Ürümqi this time (85% Han and Hui). Traditionally, Uighur uprisings happened in the south of Xinjiang (Baren, Kashgar, ... ) or in Gülça (&#039;Yining&#039;). Yet Ürümqi saw a lot of rural-ruban migration and social mobility there is high (i.e. mobility leads to competing expectations and thus frustrations, different groups are more closely confronted with each other in cities etc... )  

An independent Uiğurstan is not for anytime soon, unless China balkanises which is not probable either. If I said that Uighurs have far more ground for existential uncertainty and anxiety than Han (should) have, it is because the options do not look very bright indeed. For a start, physically, they are confronted with a numerically vastly superior and agressive enemy. 

What&#039;s up then? Lets&#039; run the gamut: a) assimilation to remain a despised third-rank citizen anyway (&#039;the savage who learned good manners&#039;); b) emigration from China (cf. India took the Tibetans in at the time, Uighurs will be more scattered); c) perhaps the most pathetic fate of all, end up like the (with all respect) native Americans in some sort of ethnological reserve where fluo-capped tour groups can toss coins, peanuts and bacon at those &#039;backward Muslims&#039;. Any surprise that some want to escape all of these fates by fighting themselves to death?

Let one thing be clear: no-one, I think, denies the right to the Uighurs to be modern. They themselves want that too. Yet what the Han compitalists do now is not a matter of &#039;development&#039;, &#039;modernisation&#039; or &#039;evolution&#039; but of sheer subjugation and humiliation. History has shown sufficiently than any &#039;modernisation&#039; imposed by parties who think they know what is good for someone else leads to disaster. 

Or else, who knows, some in the Han establishment will draw the necessary lessons from what happened lately. Let&#039;s not dream though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phew, who started the insult contest? </p>
<p>Anyway: how can this evolve further? What is relatively new, though not surprising in se, is that it happens in Ürümqi this time (85% Han and Hui). Traditionally, Uighur uprisings happened in the south of Xinjiang (Baren, Kashgar, &#8230; ) or in Gülça (&#8216;Yining&#8217;). Yet Ürümqi saw a lot of rural-ruban migration and social mobility there is high (i.e. mobility leads to competing expectations and thus frustrations, different groups are more closely confronted with each other in cities etc&#8230; )  </p>
<p>An independent Uiğurstan is not for anytime soon, unless China balkanises which is not probable either. If I said that Uighurs have far more ground for existential uncertainty and anxiety than Han (should) have, it is because the options do not look very bright indeed. For a start, physically, they are confronted with a numerically vastly superior and agressive enemy. </p>
<p>What&#8217;s up then? Lets&#8217; run the gamut: a) assimilation to remain a despised third-rank citizen anyway (&#8216;the savage who learned good manners&#8217;); b) emigration from China (cf. India took the Tibetans in at the time, Uighurs will be more scattered); c) perhaps the most pathetic fate of all, end up like the (with all respect) native Americans in some sort of ethnological reserve where fluo-capped tour groups can toss coins, peanuts and bacon at those &#8216;backward Muslims&#8217;. Any surprise that some want to escape all of these fates by fighting themselves to death?</p>
<p>Let one thing be clear: no-one, I think, denies the right to the Uighurs to be modern. They themselves want that too. Yet what the Han compitalists do now is not a matter of &#8216;development&#8217;, &#8216;modernisation&#8217; or &#8216;evolution&#8217; but of sheer subjugation and humiliation. History has shown sufficiently than any &#8216;modernisation&#8217; imposed by parties who think they know what is good for someone else leads to disaster. </p>
<p>Or else, who knows, some in the Han establishment will draw the necessary lessons from what happened lately. Let&#8217;s not dream though.</p>
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		<title>By: michaelhancock</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2009/07/06/clash-in-xinjiang-july-5-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-380742</link>
		<dc:creator>michaelhancock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 07:54:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Hate to sound whiny Inkan, but addressing Joshua is technically a mistake, since I wrote the post.  I know I post less frequently, but assuming every post is Joshua&#039;s cuts out the other regular contributors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hate to sound whiny Inkan, but addressing Joshua is technically a mistake, since I wrote the post.  I know I post less frequently, but assuming every post is Joshua&#8217;s cuts out the other regular contributors.</p>
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		<title>By: Inkan1969</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2009/07/06/clash-in-xinjiang-july-5-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-380740</link>
		<dc:creator>Inkan1969</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 20:08:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>It&#039;s too bad that the message board so far has been mostly an insult contest between Han and Uyghur sympathizers.  Perhaps this is a measure of the sheer lack of access to objective facts on this catastrophe.  We don&#039;t seem to know the identities of the people killed; how many were killed by rioting Uyghurs, how many by authorities and rioting Hans.  However we feel about how to resolve the political situation in Xinjiang/Uyghurstan, we should all be disappointed that people have reacted to the situation with a massive loss of life.

The PRC doesn&#039;t allow for the people of Xinjiang/Uyghurstan or Tibet to voice their opinion.  We don&#039;t if the majorities of either region really do want full independence or to remain in the PRC in some manner.  And even if they do want independence, the indy side must address the PRC&#039;s own security concerns, such as fear that Tibet and Uyghurstan could become Western or Russian client states.

Joshua, I wish, too, that this tragedy was leading the U.S. news, for the shear number of deaths.  I&#039;d wonder though about how the story would get covered:  We&#039;d probably get the same accusations lobbed during the Iran election crisis, of the U.S. media trying to make the opposition protesters look completely in the right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s too bad that the message board so far has been mostly an insult contest between Han and Uyghur sympathizers.  Perhaps this is a measure of the sheer lack of access to objective facts on this catastrophe.  We don&#8217;t seem to know the identities of the people killed; how many were killed by rioting Uyghurs, how many by authorities and rioting Hans.  However we feel about how to resolve the political situation in Xinjiang/Uyghurstan, we should all be disappointed that people have reacted to the situation with a massive loss of life.</p>
<p>The PRC doesn&#8217;t allow for the people of Xinjiang/Uyghurstan or Tibet to voice their opinion.  We don&#8217;t if the majorities of either region really do want full independence or to remain in the PRC in some manner.  And even if they do want independence, the indy side must address the PRC&#8217;s own security concerns, such as fear that Tibet and Uyghurstan could become Western or Russian client states.</p>
<p>Joshua, I wish, too, that this tragedy was leading the U.S. news, for the shear number of deaths.  I&#8217;d wonder though about how the story would get covered:  We&#8217;d probably get the same accusations lobbed during the Iran election crisis, of the U.S. media trying to make the opposition protesters look completely in the right.</p>
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		<title>By: Turgai Sangar</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2009/07/06/clash-in-xinjiang-july-5-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-380739</link>
		<dc:creator>Turgai Sangar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 19:48:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/index.php/2009/07/06/clash-in-xinjiang-july-5-2009/#comment-380739</guid>
		<description>:) Thank you, Mr. Koschei. “The Uighur’s seethe with a deep resentment and contempt and racial animus whose closest comparison is that of Arab muslims towards Israeli Jews.” 

AHA! There we have it. The deep resentment is definitely a fact in both cases, with which you seem to be familiar. It would be surprising if it was not, really. Ever wondered *why* it became that way? OK right: an “evil terrorist conspiracy”, &quot;destructive propaganda&quot; etc etc... (for more info, e.g. click here http://cpc.people.com.cn/). Anything more, maybe...?

All this being said, granted: &#039;racist Han *policy*&#039; would maybe be better. Even though Han culture has a substantive to strong supremacist element, let us assume that a certain percentage of Han do not think and behave along the same lines. 

Finally, Mr. Koschei, admit that Uighurs have far more ground for existential uncertainty/anxiety than Han have and ever will have.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> <img src='http://registan.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  Thank you, Mr. Koschei. “The Uighur’s seethe with a deep resentment and contempt and racial animus whose closest comparison is that of Arab muslims towards Israeli Jews.” </p>
<p>AHA! There we have it. The deep resentment is definitely a fact in both cases, with which you seem to be familiar. It would be surprising if it was not, really. Ever wondered *why* it became that way? OK right: an “evil terrorist conspiracy”, &#8220;destructive propaganda&#8221; etc etc&#8230; (for more info, e.g. click here <a href="http://cpc.people.com.cn/" rel="nofollow">http://cpc.people.com.cn/</a>). Anything more, maybe&#8230;?</p>
<p>All this being said, granted: &#8216;racist Han *policy*&#8217; would maybe be better. Even though Han culture has a substantive to strong supremacist element, let us assume that a certain percentage of Han do not think and behave along the same lines. </p>
<p>Finally, Mr. Koschei, admit that Uighurs have far more ground for existential uncertainty/anxiety than Han have and ever will have.</p>
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		<title>By: Nathan</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2009/07/06/clash-in-xinjiang-july-5-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-380738</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 19:38:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Normally we don&#039;t have many readers in China. For July 1-4, we had 13 visitors from China. So far we have 148 today. The Chinese and the Russians are pretty much the same on the internet. Any time they feel that they are being and/or will be criticized for something, the volunteer propaganda battalions mobilize.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Normally we don&#8217;t have many readers in China. For July 1-4, we had 13 visitors from China. So far we have 148 today. The Chinese and the Russians are pretty much the same on the internet. Any time they feel that they are being and/or will be criticized for something, the volunteer propaganda battalions mobilize.</p>
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		<title>By: Laurence Jarvik</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2009/07/06/clash-in-xinjiang-july-5-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-380737</link>
		<dc:creator>Laurence Jarvik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 17:43:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Josh and Nathan, Do you have any statistics about how many readers Registan has in China? These comments are interesting, somehow something new...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Josh and Nathan, Do you have any statistics about how many readers Registan has in China? These comments are interesting, somehow something new&#8230;</p>
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