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	<title>Comments on: The IO of Nation Building: or, How Iran Runs the West</title>
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	<description>All Central Asia, All The Time</description>
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		<title>By: anan</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2009/11/01/the-io-of-nation-building-or-how-iran-runs-the-west/comment-page-1/#comment-383364</link>
		<dc:creator>anan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 04:48:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/?p=9859#comment-383364</guid>
		<description>Brother Shirzay, Joe may not be as knowledgeable and accomplished as you; but I would still treat him respectfully.

I would be curious about your perspective. Iran seems to have played a positive role in Afghanistan in the 1830 to 1979 period. 1979 on, Iran backed some Mujaheddin against the hated communists. Iran was deeply involved in the Afghan civil war between 1988 and 1996. Iran strongly backed the anti Taliban Afghan resistance, including the Northern Alliance) between 1996 and 2001. Wasn&#039;t this aspect of Iranian involvement at least positive? Haven&#039;t the Iranians generally played a positive role in Afghanistan between 2001 and 2006. In 2007, Iran started playing a more mixed role in Afghanistan.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brother Shirzay, Joe may not be as knowledgeable and accomplished as you; but I would still treat him respectfully.</p>
<p>I would be curious about your perspective. Iran seems to have played a positive role in Afghanistan in the 1830 to 1979 period. 1979 on, Iran backed some Mujaheddin against the hated communists. Iran was deeply involved in the Afghan civil war between 1988 and 1996. Iran strongly backed the anti Taliban Afghan resistance, including the Northern Alliance) between 1996 and 2001. Wasn&#8217;t this aspect of Iranian involvement at least positive? Haven&#8217;t the Iranians generally played a positive role in Afghanistan between 2001 and 2006. In 2007, Iran started playing a more mixed role in Afghanistan.</p>
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		<title>By: Toryalay Shirzay</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2009/11/01/the-io-of-nation-building-or-how-iran-runs-the-west/comment-page-1/#comment-383363</link>
		<dc:creator>Toryalay Shirzay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 04:20:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/?p=9859#comment-383363</guid>
		<description>Joe,
Those daily buses running between Kabul and Herat weren&#039;t convenient for you.What do you know about the details and nuances of the Iranian actions and intentions in Afghanistan over the span of 3 decades?Your pretension of having real knowledge regarding this matter is far more laughable.What do you actually do in Afghanistan?What have you accomplished there so far?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe,<br />
Those daily buses running between Kabul and Herat weren&#8217;t convenient for you.What do you know about the details and nuances of the Iranian actions and intentions in Afghanistan over the span of 3 decades?Your pretension of having real knowledge regarding this matter is far more laughable.What do you actually do in Afghanistan?What have you accomplished there so far?</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Harlan</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2009/11/01/the-io-of-nation-building-or-how-iran-runs-the-west/comment-page-1/#comment-383359</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Harlan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 19:20:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/?p=9859#comment-383359</guid>
		<description>Toryalay Shirzay,

Yes, I flew.  I actually tried to drive but couldn&#039;t get any reliable transport past Chaghcharan.  Practicalities dictated that I therefore take a flight.  

Yes, I stayed in a hotel.  I guess I didn&#039;t earn my Afghan hardship merit badge this time -- although I assure you I&#039;ve slept in tougher spots than even most poor Afghans -- but in any case I don&#039;t think this makes my experience invalid.

Yes, I claimed the city was clean and peaceful &lt;i&gt;compared to my usual home in Kabul&lt;/i&gt;.  Which it is.  Perhaps that&#039;s because Kabul&#039;s air quality, dust, overcrowding, and filth are so horrendous.  

He was not rich.  That, in fact, was what made it so striking. In his two-room mud brick house on a mud street and practically straddling an open sewer, he had electricity and a television.

And again by comparison I can&#039;t share your view of Heratis.  If the Heratis are so undernourished and hard pressed to eke out an existence, then the rest of Afghanistan must be constantly a step from death&#039;s door.  The kids I&#039;ve met from DaiKondi and Helmand and Kandahar are doing much, much worse.  Even the street kids in Kabul are barely surviving compared to those in Herat.

I was not writing a grand piece on the Afghan Condition, which as you point out, I may never be able to honestly capture.  (Perhaps you would like to contribute a post?)  What I &lt;i&gt;was&lt;/i&gt; writing on was the glaring difference between the conditions in Herat and those I&#039;ve seen in Kabul, Kandahar, Wardak, Parwan, Baghlan, etc. -- essentially the other side of the country, where I&#039;ve spent the majority of my tour.  That makes a difference because of the money and attention spent in different places.  Incidentally, how much has Pakistan spent in predominately Shi&#039;a Bamiyan?  (Besides the explosives they donate to the insurgents?)

And your implication that Iran somehow dictated the constitution is laughable.  Even if it were true -- which it isn&#039;t, being contradicted by the experience of hundreds -- political oppression is hardly the greatest concern of most Afghans.  It&#039;s simply making it through to the next day, something that I &lt;i&gt;have&lt;/i&gt; seen elsewhere.  This did not appear to be a huge problem for the 400,000 or so who live in Herat, which is why I wrote the post in the first place!  That you dislike Iran so intensely is not reason enough to pretend they can do nothing right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Toryalay Shirzay,</p>
<p>Yes, I flew.  I actually tried to drive but couldn&#8217;t get any reliable transport past Chaghcharan.  Practicalities dictated that I therefore take a flight.  </p>
<p>Yes, I stayed in a hotel.  I guess I didn&#8217;t earn my Afghan hardship merit badge this time &#8212; although I assure you I&#8217;ve slept in tougher spots than even most poor Afghans &#8212; but in any case I don&#8217;t think this makes my experience invalid.</p>
<p>Yes, I claimed the city was clean and peaceful <i>compared to my usual home in Kabul</i>.  Which it is.  Perhaps that&#8217;s because Kabul&#8217;s air quality, dust, overcrowding, and filth are so horrendous.  </p>
<p>He was not rich.  That, in fact, was what made it so striking. In his two-room mud brick house on a mud street and practically straddling an open sewer, he had electricity and a television.</p>
<p>And again by comparison I can&#8217;t share your view of Heratis.  If the Heratis are so undernourished and hard pressed to eke out an existence, then the rest of Afghanistan must be constantly a step from death&#8217;s door.  The kids I&#8217;ve met from DaiKondi and Helmand and Kandahar are doing much, much worse.  Even the street kids in Kabul are barely surviving compared to those in Herat.</p>
<p>I was not writing a grand piece on the Afghan Condition, which as you point out, I may never be able to honestly capture.  (Perhaps you would like to contribute a post?)  What I <i>was</i> writing on was the glaring difference between the conditions in Herat and those I&#8217;ve seen in Kabul, Kandahar, Wardak, Parwan, Baghlan, etc. &#8212; essentially the other side of the country, where I&#8217;ve spent the majority of my tour.  That makes a difference because of the money and attention spent in different places.  Incidentally, how much has Pakistan spent in predominately Shi&#8217;a Bamiyan?  (Besides the explosives they donate to the insurgents?)</p>
<p>And your implication that Iran somehow dictated the constitution is laughable.  Even if it were true &#8212; which it isn&#8217;t, being contradicted by the experience of hundreds &#8212; political oppression is hardly the greatest concern of most Afghans.  It&#8217;s simply making it through to the next day, something that I <i>have</i> seen elsewhere.  This did not appear to be a huge problem for the 400,000 or so who live in Herat, which is why I wrote the post in the first place!  That you dislike Iran so intensely is not reason enough to pretend they can do nothing right.</p>
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		<title>By: Toryalay Shirzay</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2009/11/01/the-io-of-nation-building-or-how-iran-runs-the-west/comment-page-1/#comment-383358</link>
		<dc:creator>Toryalay Shirzay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 18:17:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/?p=9859#comment-383358</guid>
		<description>Joe,
You flew to Herat and stayed at a comfortable hotel which the vast majority of Heratis cannot afford to stay.Your picture of Herat didn&#039;t lie about its very unhealthy air pollution but you pronounced the place as clean.You and your friend dined at a rich Herati&#039;s house but you didn&#039;t bother to go where the ordinary,the oppressed Heratis live ,to see how hard it is for them to earn a meager living .If you had made an honest effort at getting the real picture of the lives of ordinary Heratis,you would have noticed how undernourished they are and afflicted with many diaeases which make their lives miserable and the psychological anguish they endure to due oppressive islamic customs and mandates.
Right after the overthrow of the Taliban in 2001,the West ,due to either ignorance or lack of proper care,allowed Iran to get involved in writing the Afghan constitution  and to push for who should be leading the country.Now we see how flawed this action has been and how Afghanistan once again lost a chance at having an honorable constitution which would have allowed the traumatized population a decent chance at liberty ,justice and prosperity.
You made the effort to take the risk of coming to Afghanistan and you will be at peace with your own conscience,if you started to mingle with Afghans who are denied their civil rights,with Afghans who have no power which constitute the vast majority of Afghans,and delve deep into their lives and see how the elite and gov.offices actually treat them;in short a better understanding of what actually is happening there and not just skin-deep observations here and there like most westerners do.Only then you will understand and get the real picture and the experience of those who have studied this country under microscope for many decades.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe,<br />
You flew to Herat and stayed at a comfortable hotel which the vast majority of Heratis cannot afford to stay.Your picture of Herat didn&#8217;t lie about its very unhealthy air pollution but you pronounced the place as clean.You and your friend dined at a rich Herati&#8217;s house but you didn&#8217;t bother to go where the ordinary,the oppressed Heratis live ,to see how hard it is for them to earn a meager living .If you had made an honest effort at getting the real picture of the lives of ordinary Heratis,you would have noticed how undernourished they are and afflicted with many diaeases which make their lives miserable and the psychological anguish they endure to due oppressive islamic customs and mandates.<br />
Right after the overthrow of the Taliban in 2001,the West ,due to either ignorance or lack of proper care,allowed Iran to get involved in writing the Afghan constitution  and to push for who should be leading the country.Now we see how flawed this action has been and how Afghanistan once again lost a chance at having an honorable constitution which would have allowed the traumatized population a decent chance at liberty ,justice and prosperity.<br />
You made the effort to take the risk of coming to Afghanistan and you will be at peace with your own conscience,if you started to mingle with Afghans who are denied their civil rights,with Afghans who have no power which constitute the vast majority of Afghans,and delve deep into their lives and see how the elite and gov.offices actually treat them;in short a better understanding of what actually is happening there and not just skin-deep observations here and there like most westerners do.Only then you will understand and get the real picture and the experience of those who have studied this country under microscope for many decades.</p>
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		<title>By: anan</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2009/11/01/the-io-of-nation-building-or-how-iran-runs-the-west/comment-page-1/#comment-383357</link>
		<dc:creator>anan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 14:48:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/?p=9859#comment-383357</guid>
		<description>Sam, Haqqani seems to have close connections with Lashkar e Jhanvi, Sipah e Sahaba and Jundullah. Most Afghan terrorist attacks are probably committed by Haqqani and his allies. I don&#039;t think it is fair to say that Shia who live in the Pashtun belt have been immune from attacks. Notice how strongly Afghan Shia support Karzai and the GoI (they won the election for Karzai)? Notice the large numbers of Shia volunteers for the ANSF? Unfortunately the ANSF can&#039;t accept them all because it wants to maintain a 40% Pashtun representation, and because of its small training through put.

An interesting point brought up by Joshua and many others is that the Quetta Shura Taliban seems to be discouraging terrorist attacks on civilians in general (not just against Shia.) This said, it is open season on the ANP and ANA, including Hazara Shia ANA and ANP.

Remember the Farah firefight with the ANA and ANP earlier this year that lasted 12 hours (civilians were killed in ISAF tactical air support during the battle that caused a global furor.) The Taliban didn&#039;t seem to have any quams trying to cut off and kill a battalion sized force of ANA and ANP which was no doubt Shia heavy. {Naturally the ANA and ANP claimed the people they were fighting were &quot;foreign fighters.&quot;}</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sam, Haqqani seems to have close connections with Lashkar e Jhanvi, Sipah e Sahaba and Jundullah. Most Afghan terrorist attacks are probably committed by Haqqani and his allies. I don&#8217;t think it is fair to say that Shia who live in the Pashtun belt have been immune from attacks. Notice how strongly Afghan Shia support Karzai and the GoI (they won the election for Karzai)? Notice the large numbers of Shia volunteers for the ANSF? Unfortunately the ANSF can&#8217;t accept them all because it wants to maintain a 40% Pashtun representation, and because of its small training through put.</p>
<p>An interesting point brought up by Joshua and many others is that the Quetta Shura Taliban seems to be discouraging terrorist attacks on civilians in general (not just against Shia.) This said, it is open season on the ANP and ANA, including Hazara Shia ANA and ANP.</p>
<p>Remember the Farah firefight with the ANA and ANP earlier this year that lasted 12 hours (civilians were killed in ISAF tactical air support during the battle that caused a global furor.) The Taliban didn&#8217;t seem to have any quams trying to cut off and kill a battalion sized force of ANA and ANP which was no doubt Shia heavy. {Naturally the ANA and ANP claimed the people they were fighting were &#8220;foreign fighters.&#8221;}</p>
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		<title>By: Ahad_Abdurahmon</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2009/11/01/the-io-of-nation-building-or-how-iran-runs-the-west/comment-page-1/#comment-383356</link>
		<dc:creator>Ahad_Abdurahmon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 14:47:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/?p=9859#comment-383356</guid>
		<description>if someone is watching iranian tv channels, you cannot conclude that iran is aiding the place the most. with the same line of logic one could argue that the west is giving the most aid and has the most influence on north korea because its dictator loves western show business and whiskey.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>if someone is watching iranian tv channels, you cannot conclude that iran is aiding the place the most. with the same line of logic one could argue that the west is giving the most aid and has the most influence on north korea because its dictator loves western show business and whiskey.</p>
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		<title>By: sam</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2009/11/01/the-io-of-nation-building-or-how-iran-runs-the-west/comment-page-1/#comment-383354</link>
		<dc:creator>sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 11:21:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/?p=9859#comment-383354</guid>
		<description>To step back from the Godwin brink, a couple of points for your consideration:

1. A lot of the Persian TV on view at Herat (and other parts of Afghanistan) is actually from anti-government channels beaming from Los Angeles (hence the music videos, which don&#039;t appearon official Iranian TV) and BBC and VoA Persian TV services. This is simply a continuation of the ancient Persian/Farsiwan cultural zone, and in my experience is in many ways more powerful than the propaganda exported by the Iranian government.
2. The Iranian government is also quite active in Hazara regions -- not just in the Hazarajat, but if you go to Jagori&#039;s Hazara areas you&#039;ll see not just Shi&#039;a mosques paid for by the Iranian government, but perhaps more important, political and philosophical discussions building on the strong dissident movement in Iran. A reference to Alborz isn&#039;t necessarily a sign of support for the Islamic Republic next door.

To build on this point: One of the key questions regarding the current insurgency is why it has so far avoided major sectarian clashes with the Shi&#039;as. Even as the insurgents expand their targets to take in the UN -- reversing decades of protected neutrality for the organization and &#039;good&#039; NGOs -- there still hasn&#039;t been a concerted effort to make this an anti-shi&#039;a fight, the way it has been in many parts of Pakistan. 

One possible reason -- and i&#039;m just engaging in guesses based on logic, not any hard facts -- may be that the Iranians have reached an accommodation with various insurgent groups, in exchange for some degree of protection for Afghan Shi&#039;as.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To step back from the Godwin brink, a couple of points for your consideration:</p>
<p>1. A lot of the Persian TV on view at Herat (and other parts of Afghanistan) is actually from anti-government channels beaming from Los Angeles (hence the music videos, which don&#8217;t appearon official Iranian TV) and BBC and VoA Persian TV services. This is simply a continuation of the ancient Persian/Farsiwan cultural zone, and in my experience is in many ways more powerful than the propaganda exported by the Iranian government.<br />
2. The Iranian government is also quite active in Hazara regions &#8212; not just in the Hazarajat, but if you go to Jagori&#8217;s Hazara areas you&#8217;ll see not just Shi&#8217;a mosques paid for by the Iranian government, but perhaps more important, political and philosophical discussions building on the strong dissident movement in Iran. A reference to Alborz isn&#8217;t necessarily a sign of support for the Islamic Republic next door.</p>
<p>To build on this point: One of the key questions regarding the current insurgency is why it has so far avoided major sectarian clashes with the Shi&#8217;as. Even as the insurgents expand their targets to take in the UN &#8212; reversing decades of protected neutrality for the organization and &#8216;good&#8217; NGOs &#8212; there still hasn&#8217;t been a concerted effort to make this an anti-shi&#8217;a fight, the way it has been in many parts of Pakistan. </p>
<p>One possible reason &#8212; and i&#8217;m just engaging in guesses based on logic, not any hard facts &#8212; may be that the Iranians have reached an accommodation with various insurgent groups, in exchange for some degree of protection for Afghan Shi&#8217;as.</p>
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		<title>By: Turgai Sangar</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2009/11/01/the-io-of-nation-building-or-how-iran-runs-the-west/comment-page-1/#comment-383344</link>
		<dc:creator>Turgai Sangar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 11:04:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/?p=9859#comment-383344</guid>
		<description>Joe, thanks for this. I didn&#039;t knew Godwin&#039;s Law but indeed: one more specific variation on it are discussions that end in or are blocked off with accusations of &#039;anti-Semitism&#039; which seems to be a homemade speciality of certain ideological clubs as well as of one gentleman on this forum.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe, thanks for this. I didn&#8217;t knew Godwin&#8217;s Law but indeed: one more specific variation on it are discussions that end in or are blocked off with accusations of &#8216;anti-Semitism&#8217; which seems to be a homemade speciality of certain ideological clubs as well as of one gentleman on this forum.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Harlan</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2009/11/01/the-io-of-nation-building-or-how-iran-runs-the-west/comment-page-1/#comment-383343</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Harlan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:42:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/?p=9859#comment-383343</guid>
		<description>Toryalay Shirzay,

You are making a lot of assertions, and we are quickly reaching the endpoint of &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin&#039;s_law&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Godwin&#039;s Law&lt;/a&gt;.  You&#039;re also risking being labeled quite the bigot yourself when you make statements like, &quot;&lt;i&gt;the place is flooded with Iranian books pushing the Shiate ideology including the perversion of classic persian poetry books...&lt;/i&gt;&quot;

I&#039;m no fan of the Iranian theocracy either, but I think you&#039;re showing some rather significant bias that will lead me to dismiss your opinions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Toryalay Shirzay,</p>
<p>You are making a lot of assertions, and we are quickly reaching the endpoint of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law" rel="nofollow">Godwin&#8217;s Law</a>.  You&#8217;re also risking being labeled quite the bigot yourself when you make statements like, &#8220;<i>the place is flooded with Iranian books pushing the Shiate ideology including the perversion of classic persian poetry books&#8230;</i>&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m no fan of the Iranian theocracy either, but I think you&#8217;re showing some rather significant bias that will lead me to dismiss your opinions.</p>
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		<title>By: anan</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2009/11/01/the-io-of-nation-building-or-how-iran-runs-the-west/comment-page-1/#comment-383338</link>
		<dc:creator>anan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 04:41:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/?p=9859#comment-383338</guid>
		<description>Toryalay Shirzay 11/2/2009 at 11:05 pm, granted extremist Shiites such are a problem; and Khamenei in particular is a problem. However, the extremist Shiites are a far smaller threat than the extremist Salafi wackos (most Salafis are good decent people.)

Far be it for me to correct a brave native son. I know that your views are held by many. This said, perhaps you could write &quot;extremist muslims&quot; rather than &quot;muslims.&quot; Yes the extremists are a threat to the whole world; however most muslims are against the extremists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Toryalay Shirzay 11/2/2009 at 11:05 pm, granted extremist Shiites such are a problem; and Khamenei in particular is a problem. However, the extremist Shiites are a far smaller threat than the extremist Salafi wackos (most Salafis are good decent people.)</p>
<p>Far be it for me to correct a brave native son. I know that your views are held by many. This said, perhaps you could write &#8220;extremist muslims&#8221; rather than &#8220;muslims.&#8221; Yes the extremists are a threat to the whole world; however most muslims are against the extremists.</p>
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