Comments on: McChrystal method

By: DE Teodoru

DE Teodoru — Thu, 10 Dec 2009 00:23:03 +0000

I’m sure others on this site can expound with expertise on the Taliban-China relationship since 1960s. So there’s really no need for me to go into details. As for what they had to say to Obama, you’ll have to wait for FRUS to satisfy your need for documentation, sorry.

By: anan

anan — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 17:58:05 +0000

Omar, I have a 12 volume english translation of the Mahabharata poem. The Mahabharata poem really is that long. It also has detailed info of many countries.

The king of Kamboja (Northern Afghanistan/Uzbekistan), Sudakshina, is a killer cool warrior that both the good Pandava brothers and the bad Kaurava brothers compete to persuade to join their side in the war. But many of his people and subordinate tribes (which he brings to India with him) are described as non Vedic mlechas (there was freedom of religion back then.)

The Hindu Sanskrit scriptures as a whole would be over a thousand books. Some of the poems (Skanda Purana) have 12 volume long translations like the Mahabharata. Others are shorter. There are over a 100 major texts like the Mahabharata.

The ancient Aryan empires (Persian and South Asian) were large federalist confederacies (in some cases merely loose alliances) with substantial local autonomy for individual nations. They were quite plural, and respected freedom of religion, thought, language, culture and philosophy. There was also a lot of trade across the entire region, from Sumaria (Iraq) to South Asia to Sumatra/Java/Bali (Indonesia.)

There are many Sumerian archeological artifacts that have been found in South Asia, which demonstrates the degree of trade and immigrant communities. {Entire Sumarian burial sites have been found in South Asia for Sumerian immigrants/traders in South Asia.}

By: omar

omar — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 17:28:24 +0000

we (on a large list) were once asked by a south asian studies teacher to recommend movies or books to assign during a class about the Mahabharata. I told her to assign RK Narayan’s English version as the text, Barbara Stoller Miller’s translation of the Gita, Peter Brook’s TV miniseries and Shyam Benegal’s amazing modern adaptation (the movie Kalyug…which superficially is about feuding super-rich industrialist cousins in Bombay but makes highly creative, intelligent and subtle use of the Mahabharat as its inspiration…right down to income tax inspectors pulling out Rekha’s Sari from her closet, what a wonderful way to connect with Draupadi’s attempted disrobing..).
Actually, this is just a plug for Kalyug. the rest is optional.

By: anan

anan — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 05:23:45 +0000

Prithvi, the Mahabharata is widely known in Burma, Thailand, Indonesia and Malaysia. Indonesians and Malays were converted to Islam by muslim traders who traveled around putting on two puppet shows to describe the ideals of Islam (the Mahabharata and Ramayana.) Rama (the hero/Messiah of the Ramayana) and Krishna (the hero/Messiah of the Mahabharata) are depicted as ideal muslims (in much the way muslims depict Isha/Jesus as an ideal muslim.)

It won’t be a bad idea to inform the folks here of the basic plot of the Mahabharata, the world’s longest poem.

The conflict is between two sets of cousins, the 5 Pandava brothers (lead by Yudhistira . . . the “oldest” Pandava; Bhima and Arjuna are two other Pandava brothers who fight extremely well) are the good guys. The Kaurava brothers lead by their eldest–Duryodhana–are the bad guys. Draupadi is the wife of all 5 Pandava brothers (seriously, she marries all five of them), and is kind of their de facto leader . . . clearly the brains of the bunch.

The two sets of cousins fight a terrible war that drags in many countries. Afghanistan (Gandhara), lead by their king–the secret master villain Shakuni, and poor hapless Kambojas (from Northern Afghanistan/Uzbekistan) fight for the Kauravas (the bad guys.) The king of either Tibet or Burma from across the Himalayas (Bhagadatta) fights for the Kauravas (bad guys.) Note that Bhagadatta is a very good righteous man manipulated into fighting for the bad Kauravas. Bengal (lead by Shishupala’s son Drishtaketu) fights for the good Pandavas. Pandya (Tamil Nadu, or the Southernmost portion of India) fights for the good Pandavas. Some nations come on ships from distant islands.

In the war, many very bad people fight for the good guys (Pandavas), and many very very good people fight for the bad guys (Kauravas.) It is complicated with people from both sides reluctant to fight fathers, sons, and brothers in the opposing army. Many nations split with some supporting both sides in the war.

Two of the very good guys fighting for the bad Kauravas are Karna and Bhishma–mentioned above. They are Achilles type super invincible warriors. In fact, Bhishma is the human incarnation of the ancient Euro-Indian Aryan god Dyaus Pita (one of the eight Vasus), better known as Zeus or Jupiter to Europeans. {The ancient Romans, Greeks, and Vedic Hindus shared many of the same deities. Many of these shared deities play a role in the Mahabharata, just as they do in the Illiad.}

By the way, the mom of the bad Kaurava brothers is Gandhari (daughter of Afghanistan or Gandhara), and the evil secret master villain’s (Shakuni’s) sister. But Gandhari is super good, a complete opposite of her secretly super evil brother (Shakuni, king of the Afghans.)

Krishna is central to the entire thing–and he is the Jesus type Messiah of the Hindus.

OK, did any of you get any of that? :LOL: OK, it is complicated.

By: Prithvi

Prithvi — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 04:18:23 +0000

rather, I meant the marines are still Arjuna

By: Prithvi

Prithvi — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 04:17:52 +0000

Shakuni is obviously the ISI. The American people are Draupadi, since the war is being fought to avenge the humiliation of 9/11. The US Air Force is Bhima, powerful, but prone to blundering. The marines are still Krishna, although their self-doubt is caused by multiple tours of duty and PTSD rather than humanist qualms.

The Afghan Taliban are probably not as noble as Karna, but not quite sympathetic to all the machinations of Al-Qaeda (Kauravas.)

I imagine everyone else reading this has gotten a little irritated at our parlor game.

By: omar

omar — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 00:26:59 +0000

I think that Mahabharata analogies can be found for any individual (everything that is out there being in here, and so on), but the situation as a whole is not conducive to this analogy. These are not cousins fighting each other. Most of the characters are not intimately known to each other (which is one reason for so many misunderstandings).
Btw, if Obama is Yudhishtra, doesnt he get to be the only one who makes it to heaven (with his faithful portuguese water dog?). And if the Marines are Arjuna, where is the episode of serious self-doubt and pacifist feeling? And who is Krishna? Most important of all, who is draupadi?

By: anan

anan — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 00:00:58 +0000

“the Chinese requested that the US escalate in Afghanistan so that it and the SCA are not forced to in order to keep the Taliban out of power. Particularly for China, the Afghan finder to its border is a threat to its Muslim West.” Any sources? DE Teodoru, AQ and the Taliban pose as large a threat to China as the US.

What I don’t get is why President Obama isn’t standing up for America when dealing with the Chinese? Why isn’t Obama demanding that China step up in Afghanistan (in foreign aid and a civilian surge, although a surge in ANP trainers would be better)?

According to Joe Klein, Obama is pleased with Chinese pressure on Pakistan, and Chinese military aid/training to Pakistan; and is as a result giving the Chinese a lot (not meeting the Dalai Lama, not speaking forcefully about Chinese civil rights, slightly tilting towards China against India in the recent strongly worded Chinese statements against India; not asking the Chinese to contribute much on Afghanistan, CO2, protecting global sea lanes and other global issues.)

DE Teodoru, there is little doubt that China supports the Afghan surge. The real question is if China is willing to do anything other than free ride.

“Obama certainly makes for an apt Yudhisthira.” Hadn’t thought of that before. Would India be the Yadavas (Krishna’s people), who generally speaking don’t fight . . . but root for Yudisthira [the super honest, very good, super righteous, seeing the best in every bad person, always forgiving every bad person for everything, ever compassionate and merciful, leader of the good guys] to win.

Iran might be Rukma (brother of Krishna’s wife Rukmini) who wants to help Yudhistira fight the bad guys, but whose help is not accepted. {The bad guys don’t like him either and wouldn’t dream of accepting his help; which humiliates the hell out of poor Rukma.}

Russia might be the person who always agitates for war against the bad guys, but isn’t allowed to fight.

Would Canada be Satyaki (a one man army who joins the good guys all by themselves . . . and fights extremely well)? Except Satyaki didn’t quit at the end of 2011.

Karzai might be Shishupal’s son Dhristaketu (who everyone thought was a super killer fighting machine that would win the war for the good guys . . . but he turned out to be a dud.) Or maybe Karzai is Drishtadyumna (the commander in chief of Yudistira’s good guys; although other better warriors do most of the “leading” and “winning.”)

Are the Marines, who punch way above their size and weight, Arjuna?

Who is Shakuni (super intelligent mover of events behind the scenes; the secret master villain)? Duryodhana (not super bright lead villain)? Do the extremists have any tragic sympathetic heroes fighting for them such as Karna or Bhishma?

Here is an interesting question; on whose side are the various Pakistani factions fighting?

By: Prithvi

Prithvi — Sun, 06 Dec 2009 23:52:00 +0000

I seriously doubt the Chinese had anything to do with the decision. It’s a mistake to think the US has no economic leverage over the Chinese. No matter what, the Chinese need the US as a market for their goods for the sake of their own economic well being, and the artificial devaluation of the yuan in furtherance of this need makes them hostage to policies adopted by the Fed, such as quantitative easing. Since the British, Japanese, and Swiss have followed SE policies as well, the dollar has remained relatively stable against these countries, while devaluing against the yuan, so that ironically, the Americans have finagled what they always wanted from the Chinese but never could get them to do.

As a result, there has been at present, a reduction in the US trade deficit with China. The Chinese are receiving lower returns on their US investments and there is really nothing they can do about it at present. It’s not a total misfortune for them as these eases liquidity in their own market. Of course, the danger for everyone is if the Fed can’t mop up all that liquidity when a recovery begins.

By: DE Teodoru

DE Teodoru — Sun, 06 Dec 2009 22:48:32 +0000

I think that what I had been told personally was also confirmed in the press: that Obama was favoring NOT sending more troops to Afghanistan. But then word came that when in Beijing he asked Chinese for forbearance on our debt so he could push domestic expenditures on healthcare, etc, the Chinese requested that the US escalate in Afghanistan so that it and the SCA are not forced to in order to keep the Taliban out of power. Particularly for China, the Afghan finder to its border is a threat to its Muslim West. What do all of you guts sitting in DC think or hear?