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	<title>Comments on: Correcting the Record</title>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Tintin</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2010/02/08/correcting-the-record/comment-page-1/#comment-384287</link>
		<dc:creator>Tintin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 22:22:41 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Fair point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fair point.</p>
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		<title>By: BruceR</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2010/02/08/correcting-the-record/comment-page-1/#comment-384284</link>
		<dc:creator>BruceR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 21:09:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Even calling an all-Afghan PEF group a patrol is stretching it, Tintin. ISAF (or the ANA) has rarely had any idea where PEF was, who they were, or what they were doing. We had better visibility on PMCs a year ago. If your last friendly force casualty at the hand of insurgents in an entire area was a single probably untrained and unaccountable local &quot;policeman&quot; two years ago, that&#039;s a no-go area.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even calling an all-Afghan PEF group a patrol is stretching it, Tintin. ISAF (or the ANA) has rarely had any idea where PEF was, who they were, or what they were doing. We had better visibility on PMCs a year ago. If your last friendly force casualty at the hand of insurgents in an entire area was a single probably untrained and unaccountable local &#8220;policeman&#8221; two years ago, that&#8217;s a no-go area.</p>
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		<title>By: Tintin</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2010/02/08/correcting-the-record/comment-page-1/#comment-384282</link>
		<dc:creator>Tintin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 19:19:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Of course, I agree that this operation will likely simply create another Marja someplace else in Helmand that so far only SOF have poked at, or that no one has poked at because the enemy wasn&#039;t there and will now move there. Then the pattern described above will be repeated. Fun!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course, I agree that this operation will likely simply create another Marja someplace else in Helmand that so far only SOF have poked at, or that no one has poked at because the enemy wasn&#8217;t there and will now move there. Then the pattern described above will be repeated. Fun!</p>
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		<title>By: Tintin</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2010/02/08/correcting-the-record/comment-page-1/#comment-384281</link>
		<dc:creator>Tintin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 19:15:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/?p=10491#comment-384281</guid>
		<description>Re: numbers of troops -- it is dumb to try to extrapolate from the size of MEB-A the number of personnel who will be going into Marja. That has been made very clear by Marine press releases and journalists&#039; reports: the assault force, which is the main effort of RCT-7, comprises two full Marine infantry battalions (1/6 and 3/6, both newly arrived in theater) and one Army Stryker infantry battalion (-) that has relocated from Zabul (4-23), backed by air and by a Marine artillery battalion a few miles back which has transitioned in recent weeks from doing infantry-like patrolling to keeping whole batteries ready to fire. The three infantry battalions are headquartered at austere forward locations around Marja that they&#039;ve moved into in recent days. (Altogether this is an operation that does not look at all like Falluja 2004 in terms of forces being employed: it looks like Baquba 2007.) There is no need to speculate about numbers when all the information about where the different battalions and even companies are based and operating is right there in the open-source material.

Presumably there are SOF shaping operations going on as well, either by JSOC or the southern commando kandak (and SF) or both, similar to the attack by commandos and SF Josh mentioned.

I agree with the above commenter that this is nothing like Garmsir, where battalion and occasionally two-battalion clearance operations have been happening once or twice a year since 2007. Since the fighting in Helmand really began in 2006 (when the Brits deployed a lone battalion to the province, compared to 13 there now), Marja has been neglected (although how recently it turned into a real sanctuary like it is now, I don&#039;t know). I have no doubt that patrols have passed through the edges of the Marja area at various times and been hit, like in the example Josh cited. But during all those Garmsir and Gereshk operations in 2007-8, I doubt more than a platoon every got close to Marja. In 2009, during the big clearance operations in the Nawa-Nad Ali-Babaji stretch of the valley, Marja was very obviously treated as an economy of force operation, even more so than Sangin and Musa Qala and Reg, falling into a pattern of multi-brigade operations that looks very familiar from Iraq 2007-8. That is, the twin main efforts of the MEB and TFH in that Nawa-NA-Babaji area had something like 6-7 full battalions devoted to them. Sangin, Musa Qala, Now Zad, and Reg were all &quot;hold-what-we&#039;ve-got,&quot; economy-of-force areas with a battalion devoted to each. Marja proper was the next rung down the economy-of-force latter: no conventional forces were devoted to it, because it was a no-go zone. Hence the operation by the commando kandak and SF advisors -- that kandak is essentially RC-South&#039;s SOF asset, and this is a common role for SOF assets on loan to corps and divisions. Think about the way ISOF and their SF advisors, sort of the equivalent to the commandos, operated in Sadr City in 2007 and other  untouchable Shia areas in early 2008: they were used by corps to keep the pressure on sanctuary areas that were no-go zones for conventional areas (for either practical or political reasons).

Also, I do not think Operation Mountain Thrust is a good comparison point. It was not a targeted offensive in the way that this thing is, or the operations last summer were, at all: just a division-level name for a variety of battalion-size operations mounted roughly at the same time across four provinces. Concentrating a full brigade&#039;s worth of combat power to clear a particular area like Marja is something that has only happened once before in Helmand, with the Brits last summer in the Babaji area. I am not saying this will be any more successful or enduring, but it represents a very dense concentration of infantry companies that is new to Afghanistan (although things just like this happened probably 20-30 times in Iraq over the years).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: numbers of troops &#8212; it is dumb to try to extrapolate from the size of MEB-A the number of personnel who will be going into Marja. That has been made very clear by Marine press releases and journalists&#8217; reports: the assault force, which is the main effort of RCT-7, comprises two full Marine infantry battalions (1/6 and 3/6, both newly arrived in theater) and one Army Stryker infantry battalion (-) that has relocated from Zabul (4-23), backed by air and by a Marine artillery battalion a few miles back which has transitioned in recent weeks from doing infantry-like patrolling to keeping whole batteries ready to fire. The three infantry battalions are headquartered at austere forward locations around Marja that they&#8217;ve moved into in recent days. (Altogether this is an operation that does not look at all like Falluja 2004 in terms of forces being employed: it looks like Baquba 2007.) There is no need to speculate about numbers when all the information about where the different battalions and even companies are based and operating is right there in the open-source material.</p>
<p>Presumably there are SOF shaping operations going on as well, either by JSOC or the southern commando kandak (and SF) or both, similar to the attack by commandos and SF Josh mentioned.</p>
<p>I agree with the above commenter that this is nothing like Garmsir, where battalion and occasionally two-battalion clearance operations have been happening once or twice a year since 2007. Since the fighting in Helmand really began in 2006 (when the Brits deployed a lone battalion to the province, compared to 13 there now), Marja has been neglected (although how recently it turned into a real sanctuary like it is now, I don&#8217;t know). I have no doubt that patrols have passed through the edges of the Marja area at various times and been hit, like in the example Josh cited. But during all those Garmsir and Gereshk operations in 2007-8, I doubt more than a platoon every got close to Marja. In 2009, during the big clearance operations in the Nawa-Nad Ali-Babaji stretch of the valley, Marja was very obviously treated as an economy of force operation, even more so than Sangin and Musa Qala and Reg, falling into a pattern of multi-brigade operations that looks very familiar from Iraq 2007-8. That is, the twin main efforts of the MEB and TFH in that Nawa-NA-Babaji area had something like 6-7 full battalions devoted to them. Sangin, Musa Qala, Now Zad, and Reg were all &#8220;hold-what-we&#8217;ve-got,&#8221; economy-of-force areas with a battalion devoted to each. Marja proper was the next rung down the economy-of-force latter: no conventional forces were devoted to it, because it was a no-go zone. Hence the operation by the commando kandak and SF advisors &#8212; that kandak is essentially RC-South&#8217;s SOF asset, and this is a common role for SOF assets on loan to corps and divisions. Think about the way ISOF and their SF advisors, sort of the equivalent to the commandos, operated in Sadr City in 2007 and other  untouchable Shia areas in early 2008: they were used by corps to keep the pressure on sanctuary areas that were no-go zones for conventional areas (for either practical or political reasons).</p>
<p>Also, I do not think Operation Mountain Thrust is a good comparison point. It was not a targeted offensive in the way that this thing is, or the operations last summer were, at all: just a division-level name for a variety of battalion-size operations mounted roughly at the same time across four provinces. Concentrating a full brigade&#8217;s worth of combat power to clear a particular area like Marja is something that has only happened once before in Helmand, with the Brits last summer in the Babaji area. I am not saying this will be any more successful or enduring, but it represents a very dense concentration of infantry companies that is new to Afghanistan (although things just like this happened probably 20-30 times in Iraq over the years).</p>
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		<title>By: Warlord</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2010/02/08/correcting-the-record/comment-page-1/#comment-384265</link>
		<dc:creator>Warlord</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 03:32:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/?p=10491#comment-384265</guid>
		<description>Marjah - The Grapes of Wrath
http://www.thewarlordproject.com/?p=218</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marjah &#8211; The Grapes of Wrath<br />
<a href="http://www.thewarlordproject.com/?p=218" rel="nofollow">http://www.thewarlordproject.com/?p=218</a></p>
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		<title>By: BruceR</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2010/02/08/correcting-the-record/comment-page-1/#comment-384259</link>
		<dc:creator>BruceR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 00:11:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/?p=10491#comment-384259</guid>
		<description>Josh, I just know the place from late 08-09, where it was considered effectively un-enterable by coalition forces. Canadians have been all over Helmand since 2006 but we&#039;ve never been there. Given that the war in the south really only started, at least ISAF-casualty wise, in late 2005, it&#039;s no surprise to me that it was more permissive before that point. It really has been under significantly stronger insurgent influence than Garmsir over the last few years. Nothing&#039;s impossible, but I&#039;d still be surprised if one could find any reports which indicate ISAF forces even staying the night previously.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Josh, I just know the place from late 08-09, where it was considered effectively un-enterable by coalition forces. Canadians have been all over Helmand since 2006 but we&#8217;ve never been there. Given that the war in the south really only started, at least ISAF-casualty wise, in late 2005, it&#8217;s no surprise to me that it was more permissive before that point. It really has been under significantly stronger insurgent influence than Garmsir over the last few years. Nothing&#8217;s impossible, but I&#8217;d still be surprised if one could find any reports which indicate ISAF forces even staying the night previously.</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua Foust</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2010/02/08/correcting-the-record/comment-page-1/#comment-384250</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua Foust</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 15:46:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/?p=10491#comment-384250</guid>
		<description>Bruce, there were a lot more operations. I just highlighted some of what I found on a ten minute googling expedition. 

Even so, that doesn&#039;t obscure a troubling fact. Five years ago, USAID was active in Marjeh. Now, it&#039;s some pit of dark evil. What happened? How could we have let it get so bad so fast?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bruce, there were a lot more operations. I just highlighted some of what I found on a ten minute googling expedition. </p>
<p>Even so, that doesn&#8217;t obscure a troubling fact. Five years ago, USAID was active in Marjeh. Now, it&#8217;s some pit of dark evil. What happened? How could we have let it get so bad so fast?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: BruceR</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2010/02/08/correcting-the-record/comment-page-1/#comment-384249</link>
		<dc:creator>BruceR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 13:12:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.registan.net/?p=10491#comment-384249</guid>
		<description>To be fair, one SOF raid, an Afghan PEF blunder and an air strike are not a lot, really. Marjeh&#039;s not like Garmsir, where as you say it&#039;s been in and out for over three years... this will be the first real Western on-the-ground troop presence in that area, ever. And to some degree you could argue that this is putting a new level of pressure on a previous Taliban safe zone (which a year ago, it certainly was).

Now, will this be like the first Garmsir op was, just one of many in retrospect? Possibly, but it&#039;s clearly too early to say that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To be fair, one SOF raid, an Afghan PEF blunder and an air strike are not a lot, really. Marjeh&#8217;s not like Garmsir, where as you say it&#8217;s been in and out for over three years&#8230; this will be the first real Western on-the-ground troop presence in that area, ever. And to some degree you could argue that this is putting a new level of pressure on a previous Taliban safe zone (which a year ago, it certainly was).</p>
<p>Now, will this be like the first Garmsir op was, just one of many in retrospect? Possibly, but it&#8217;s clearly too early to say that.</p>
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		<title>By: Joey</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2010/02/08/correcting-the-record/comment-page-1/#comment-384248</link>
		<dc:creator>Joey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 11:25:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Why do they tell the Taliban there on the way?  What is the point of giving them a weeks notice....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why do they tell the Taliban there on the way?  What is the point of giving them a weeks notice&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Cyrus</title>
		<link>http://registan.net/index.php/2010/02/08/correcting-the-record/comment-page-1/#comment-384247</link>
		<dc:creator>Cyrus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 07:54:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>What an incrdible waste of my tax dollars and basic human life this whole Afghan &quot;adventure&quot; has become. Benjamin, if you feel so strongly about the Taliban, then you should consider fighting them out of your own pocket.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What an incrdible waste of my tax dollars and basic human life this whole Afghan &#8220;adventure&#8221; has become. Benjamin, if you feel so strongly about the Taliban, then you should consider fighting them out of your own pocket.</p>
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